r/NoStupidQuestions Sep 23 '22 Silver 1 Helpful 2 Wholesome 1

Why, in Canada, were activists fighting for women to wear a hijab, while in Iran - they're fighting for women to not wear the hijab?

I know. Am Stupid. Just can't quite grasp why they fight to wear it in Canada, but protest against it in Iran.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22 Silver Helpful Wholesome Hugz All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Starry Narwhal Salute

Iranian here. Hijab is not all that we're fighting for here. It's also civil rights. We lack the simplest forms. Our people don't have anybody on our side. Right now (literally for the past 4 days) the self-titled "Islamic Army" have been massacring us. They started open for the days ago. We've lost a lot of our good people. And our President is in New York telling lies and brandishing Ghasem *Soleimani"s picture as a point of pride when in fact he was a terrorist for our terrorist regime. Please anybody who reads this! Inform everyone you can. It's the unarmed civilians against the heavily armed government here.

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u/Rami-961 Sep 24 '22

But my Lebanese sister said all this was a lie and Iranians are happy, she knows best /s

Seriosly, fuck the regime, fuck hezbollah, and fuck every Lebanese who supports them.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 24 '22

It's not like there's war every day. We have had protests every few years going back 43 years. But the last 6 years have been really bad. The inflation rates got unbelievably high. And Mahsa Amini was the spark that started the fire may she rest in peace.

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u/ash_tar Sep 23 '22

Just wanted to say I've visited your beautiful nation, know many Iranians. The world is aware and has been rooting for you ever since Khatami. In many countries you would have toppled the government already, but the Islamic Republic doesn't care about Iranian deaths to the point of massacre.

Keep fighting, good luck and stay safe!

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22

Thank you. It warms my heart that people know we are Iranians and not the Islamic Republic. We will fight until we die or we are free

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u/ClemClemTheClemening Sep 23 '22

I used to play online with a friend from Iran (UK here) and he kept me informed of the stuff that was happening over there, this was about 9 months ago and he stopped playing about 3 months ago saying that things were getting worse. Alot of people know that Iranians are great people and are rooting for them. Keep fighting the good fight, we hope you win.

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u/shhsandwich Sep 24 '22

I hope you're able to hear from your friend soon and that things get better and safer for him and all Iranians.

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u/ClemClemTheClemening Sep 24 '22

I've talked to them since they stopped playing and they said that their family is safe for now, and are thinking of leaving for another country if things get worse. Their all for the fight, and says that they just want their family safe.

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u/Adhara97 Sep 24 '22

My close friend from Iran whom I met on a game also could hardly make contacts with me this week. They are supposed to have a family vacation but because of the incident with Mahsa, their recreational activity feels more like an escape now from the chaos. Universities are closed and some even couldn't go to work anymore. Not only adults, but even teenagers were killed there. Houses are being burned, some even by a tank. Earlier, my friend was able to contact me shortly that they are still going back to the capital despite the riots there. I am so worried for her and her family too.

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u/identiifiication Sep 24 '22

I also had a Iranian friend on the PS4 - mind this was 5 years ago -- but he was a really good guy.

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u/A_Few_Kind_Words Sep 24 '22

True Iranians deserve freedom, peace and the right to self determination out from under the boot of Islamic Republic scum.

I feel here in the west we do not hear enough about what's happening in Iran and countries like it, we should be much more aware and supporting fights like yours, I truly wish you all the luck and success in the world.

I hope one day to see a free Iran, one where you can choose for yourselves how to live, you deserve that and so much more.

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u/Reasonable-shark Sep 24 '22

Through my job I've met several Iranians. All of them were warm, polite, friendly and very hard-working. It's such pity that those wonderful people have such a horrible government. I send Iranians my good wishes.

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u/mmm_burrito Sep 24 '22

I have nothing to add but that I deeply hope for your people's freedom.

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u/kakimiller Sep 24 '22

Sending love and prayers to all Iranians, especially your women, fighting for their human rights and freedom. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

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u/Noback68 Sep 23 '22

I believe you.

What can we (random person in the USA) do to help? If anything...

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22

Post in your social media please. It's bound to reach people who can actually make a difference. Thank you so much for your support. We are not what our government represents. We have our fair share of bigots, but most of us are peaceful people who want to be in touch with the rest of the world.

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u/Noback68 Sep 23 '22

Is there any specific information you'd like me to spread besides what you just told me?

Government lies and hides what's really happening on the ground. It's refreshing to speak to someone 'real.' The majority of people around the world are peaceful with each other. Unfortunately, gov and media try to pin us against each other. You're in my prayers, my friend.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

There are protest in more than 25 out of 31 states here. It started when the Basij (the self-titled army of Isalm) killed a 22 year old girl because her hair was out a little bit. People had enough so we started protesting. The Basij started beating people. But this this time we started fighting back. Then a few officers shot at people (there are videos on Twitter with the hashtags:

اعتراضات_سراسری

مهسا_امینی

The first meaning: all out protest And the second is the name of the 22 year old girl) After that they brought out their big guns: Sepah Pasdaran, which is basically their band of mercenaries under the guise of Islam. They have the right to shoot whoever the want (I'm not even a little bit joking). One of the first people who died was a 10 year old girl. They have also beaten old men and women who protest (I've seen this with my own eyes). They use shotguns and side-arm pistols and those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English). Most of our dead have been young men under 24. The people kept resisting and the Sepah and Basij are scared but not enough. Last night I saw they have put bullet-proof vests on 16 to 20 year old boys, given them guns and have put them in their place to do patrols. These are kids with guns.

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u/Noback68 Sep 23 '22

Oh my Lord. Your English is perfect, btw 👍. My heart aches so hard for you and everyone out there. Honestly, I want to know more (bc the main media hasn't mentioned ANY of the things you said)...

Please be safe, and keep your head up. You are valuable. You sound like a beautiful human being. Thank you, again, for sharing with me. We can talk more in private message if you'd prefer. I pray you and your family are ok

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22

Thank you so much. I'm really glad I could reach someone. We're fighting here and we won't stop. Hopefully we can change the situation someday. We won't stop fighting until we do. ❤️

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u/Swissdanielle Sep 23 '22

Believe me. None in the west believes the government. It doesn’t cross anyone’s mind that those images of people protesting in Iran are not true. Irani regime doesn’t hold a candle in the public eye, and fortunately for your cause not even the far right movements threatening our freedom in European countries are interested in defending the irani regime.

I really hope to see a change for all of you. I was really rooting for the Green revolution 15 years ago, it was heartbreaking to see it crushed 🥺

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22

Thank you. I really appreciate your kind words.

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u/Noback68 Sep 23 '22

Much love, fam! ❤️

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u/nearly_enough_wine Sep 24 '22

those nasty smoke grenade that makes you cry and cough (srry I don't know what it's called in English)

tear gas is the general term for that weapon.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 24 '22

Thank you. Thought there was another word for it.

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u/jerry5000bc Sep 24 '22

Where is all these guns and grenades coming from? Is a question that comes to mind..

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u/kakimiller Sep 24 '22

That was the first thing I saw on the news here in New York. 😢

Sending our love and prayers for every Iranian, especially women, for human rights and freedom. 🙏

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u/bbq-biscuits-bball Sep 23 '22

rooting for you over here. love and strength to you ♥️

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 23 '22

Thank you, I really appreciate it ❤️

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u/ACABForCutie420 Sep 24 '22

y’all’s story has indeed reached even the rural parts of america (saw it on the news and my mom was talking about it yesterday) so y’all are seen and heard, if that’s any solace. i hope you find freedom and peace.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 24 '22

Thank you that really does give me solace.

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u/ACABForCutie420 Sep 24 '22

we will be hoping and praying for y’all until the opportunity presents itself to truly help. there’s some protests around here planned, in support of y’all, and i hope it does some good. much love, and hope, and anger, from us. ❤️

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u/Huge_Performance1675 Sep 24 '22

I love seeing 'yall' spoken to refer to the Iranian People and our solidarity as Americans. In my 'neck of the woods,' it is as whole of an inclusion as one can express.

I second this sentiment and hope People remember that we are not defined by the tyranny of our governments. Glory to the People fighting for self determination in every corner of this world.

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u/Ill_Committee759 Sep 24 '22

Ukrainian here, and I know quite well what you're going through right now. Yet I have no doubt you'll come out victorious. I've met some great Iranians who were studying here back in my student years and I believe you have enough will and resolve to topple the dictatorship you've been forced into. Stay strong and stay united, brothers and sisters!

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 25 '22

Thank you. Hope your situation gets better as well. ❤️

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '22

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u/Smart-Pizza Sep 24 '22

Support here from the Philippines!!!!

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u/20220606 Sep 24 '22

Iran produces a lot of brilliant female scientists/mathematicians. At MIT I’ve met a few female classmates from Iran. The first female Field’s medalist Maryam Mirzakhani was Iranian. So it always baffles me how Iran values girls’ education so much yet has these totally backwards rules. There are so many bright and brave young Iranians standing up to these bs rules! I hope you succeed!! History will be on your side!!

Is there anyway we can help from the U.S.? Any helpful organizations to donate to?

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 24 '22

Maryam and I went to the same school. So glad you know her. The best way you can help is to spread the word as much as you can. We'd all really appreciate it. Please do not donate to organizations bc they're most probably fake.

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u/20220606 Sep 24 '22

Oh wow!!! My husband actually went to Iran for an international competition around 15 years ago and said a lot of the girls are really cool, with bright pink hijabs and listening to music through headphones. But there were a lot of anti-American slogans everywhere. It’s clear that young Iranians are not brainwashed by these slogans.

I wish I could reach through these internet signals and give you all a huge hug. I wish you and your family and friends the best!! Really an inspiration to the rest of the world!! <3<3<3

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u/Satansboeserzwilling Sep 24 '22

I‘m over here in Europe, spreading the gospel of the most courageous women of our time! In my heart I‘m with you and if I get the chance to help any further, I‘ll surely do that!

Everyone I talked to about this topic is now with you in their minds. Everyone is rooting for you!

Keep up the fight, and please stay safe.

We‘re with you.

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u/Ok_Blackberry_137 Sep 26 '22

Thank you. It's much appreciated ❤️

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u/OatsBrotherINeedThem Sep 24 '22

I really want Reddit to focus on the, "It's unarmed civilians against the heavily armed government here." portion of this comment. It's very, very important that Reddit, of all places, absorbs that concept.

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u/human_male_123 Sep 23 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy

They want to choose. They don't want the government to ban it (Bill 21) and they don't want to get beaten to death for refusing to wear it.

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u/Needs-more-cow-bell Sep 23 '22 Silver Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote I'll Drink to That

This is it in a nutshell.

I understand it may be confusing to think one group of women are protesting for one thing, and another group another. But they are both protesting for the exact same thing. The right to make an individual choice.

The choice about what they want to wear. On their head. In 2022.

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u/Fighting-Cerberus Sep 24 '22

Women don't have the ability to wear whatever they want on their head IN CANADA? Fuck. The world is somehow even worse than I imagined.

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u/Steingrimr Sep 24 '22

They can wear anything unless they have certain jobs in quebec iirc.

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u/WestandLeft Sep 24 '22

Yes let's be clear this is Quebec and only Quebec. They're in many ways an incredibly progressive province, but their shared history with the English and the way in which they were marginalized has led some Quebeckers to hold some incredibly xenophobic views when it comes to immigrants and non-Quebecois people.

To be honest, I'm not sure even Alberta would try something like this and if they did they'd be crucified for it, especially by the Federal Gov't. But when Quebec does it it's generally left alone because of....the votes I guess.

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u/bermuda__ Sep 24 '22

I'm not huge on canadian politics but this seems to me like Quebec trying to align themselves closer with France after the ban on certain jobs wearing hijabs earlier this year.

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u/walker1867 Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22

It’s not hijab specific, it’s religious wear, so you also wouldn’t be allowed to wear a necklace with a cross on it, turban, or kippah.

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u/vinidum Sep 24 '22

Freedom from religion, not freedom of religion is the French approach to the problem of religion.

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u/frosty_audience001 Sep 24 '22

Ok so this is a no dumb questions thread. What is a Kippah?

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u/Victor_Korchnoi Sep 24 '22

It’s another name for a yarmulke, the small circular head covering that Jewish men wear. One is the Hebrew word for it; the other is the Yiddish word for it. Not sure which is which.

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u/jpkoushel Sep 24 '22

Kippah is Hebrew and yarmulke is Yiddish. I'm an Ashkenazi Jew (the group that spoke Yiddish) and tbh I still hear kippah way more often

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 24 '22

The rule for discerning them is “does it sound kinda Arabic” or “does it sound kinda German”. The first is Hebrew (esp modern), the second is Yiddish

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u/a_smart_brane Sep 24 '22

Yarmulke is Yiddish

Kippah is Hebrew

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u/walker1867 Sep 24 '22

Brimless cloth caps an orthodox Jewish man might wear.

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u/challenge_king Sep 24 '22

A yarmulke is similar, right?

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u/plunder1029 Sep 24 '22

Its the jewish skull cap that Jewish men wear. I just googled it. I know it as a Yarmulke.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '22

Yiddish vs Hebrew

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u/DaemonRogue Sep 24 '22

Thanks for asking this lol

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u/Henheffer Sep 24 '22

Yes except they don't enforce it when it comes to crosses.

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u/ConfidentValue6387 Sep 24 '22

Exactly. ”Because the cross isn’t evil.” A mosque can’t broadcast any summons, but the church bells can go banging on the hour and on the half hour all year round because that ”sound isn’t religious”… how would a muslim NOT feel treated unfairly?

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u/Takin2000 Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22

They tried to pull the same shit in Germany too. In Bavaria, there was a law mandating that a christian cross must be hung in every classroom.

When a family eventually decided to take legal action against this paragraph for

1) violating freedom of religious expression by forcing a religion onto students

and

2.) for associating the state itself with a religion despite all government workers needing to show themselves "religiously neutral" (which is also used to ban the hijab for teachers),

the main argument from the defenders of the cross was that it wasnt really a religious symbol anymore. Their argument was that since Germany was heavily influenced by christianity in the past, the cross became a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol.

Needless to say, thats a fucking stupid argument, and even churches werent happy with it. The courts didnt buy it, and ruled that the clause was unreconcilable with laws regarding religious expression. Hence, it was nullified.

However, the county government of Bavaria simply decided to slightly change the law, phrasing it in a way that a cross is meant to represent a cultural symbol. And if there are rare cases of "atypical exceptions", then the cross can be hung off.

I dont even know why on earth this kind of strategy where they just reintroduce a slightly changed version of the paragraph is even legal, but yeah, it barely changed a thing. Subsequent legal actions were dismissed because the new law was "trying to find a compromise with distressed students". Yeah.

Edit: To add to that, nuns are allowed to wear their "nun dress" and still be teachers. That, apparently, is a "cultural" symbol and not a religious symbol aswell.

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u/Worth_Bake7134 Sep 24 '22

In the case of Quebec, I thought it was a ban on ALL religious symbolism within government jobs and government Jones only. Am I wrong on this?

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u/StrawberryEiri Sep 24 '22

I'm not sure if this is the current incarnation of the thing, but a previous version of the project was for all ostentatious religious symbols, which made the whole thing even more contested, because curiously, Christianity pretty much only has very visible religious signs for clergy, whereas Islam, a commonly vilified religion, has several.

They were even giving examples like:

  • ✖️ A huge ass cross pendant with jewels
  • ✖️ A hijab
  • ✔️ A small cross pendant
  • ✔️ A small crescent pendant

Weird how some of these are more relevant and culturally common than others.

Also AFAIK it's not all government jobs, but only those where the person is or could be interpreted to in a position of authority, including police, teachers, judges...

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u/DingJones Sep 24 '22

Invoking the notwithstanding clause,section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Basically, the federal government or a provincial government can pass a law that violates certain sections of the CCRF for a limited time. It has to be revisited every five years. So notwithstanding that you have these rights, they can make declarations within an act that ignores them. A nice little loophole around the old “reasonable limits” idea laid out on section 1.

  1. (1) Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter.

(2) An Act or a provision of an Act in respect of which a declaration made under this section is in effect shall have such operation as it would have but for the provision of this Charter referred to in the declaration.

(3) A declaration made under section (1) shall cease to have effect five years after it comes into force or on such earlier date as may be specified in the declaration.

(4) Parliament or the legislature of a province may re-enact a declaration made under section (1).

(5) Section (3) applies in respect of a re-enactment made under section (4).

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u/AdjacencyBonus Sep 24 '22

It’s not just for the votes. Quebec has long been seen as a “distinct society” within Canada, both by tradition and (in some cases) by law. It’s all very grey and poorly defined, but because of this “distinctiveness”, Quebec is able to get away with a lot of things that wouldn’t fly in other parts of Canada, such as the somewhat extreme measures they’ve put in place to protect/enforce the French language.

A lot of this is based on Canada’s history. Quebec was originally conquered by the British (from the French) in the 18th century. At the time of Confederation (in the 19th century), leading Quebecois were worried that joining Canada would mean their language and religion (Roman Catholic) would be overwhelmed, and eventually they would be transformed into an English Protestant society. The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation. At the time, Quebec was the largest and richest province, and the country likely wouldn’t have worked without them.

Fast forward to today, and the provisions originally put in place to protect Quebec from Protestantism are now being used against Islam instead. It’s hard to see how Islam poses the same threat to their culture now that Protestantism did in the 19th century, but some Quebecois are extremely serious about protecting what they see as their way of life and won’t allow anything that they think might threaten that.

In other provinces, it’s practically certain that a law like this would be struck down as unconstitutional, but the waters are a lot muddier in Quebec. The federal government is also extremely wary about confronting Quebec about anything related to protecting their culture as it could easily spark a constitutional crisis and fan the flames of separatism which have been pretty contained for some time.

Tl;dr Quebec’s unique history and special status lets them get away with things that other provinces couldn’t, and the rest of Canada is very careful about these things because they don’t want to empower the separatists.

Here’s a decent resource if you want to learn more about Quebec as a “distinct society”: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/quebec-as-a-distinct-society

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u/Stock_Border5314 Sep 24 '22

Nope. "The other provinces had to give them concessions and special protections in order to convince them to join the new nation" Absoluly false. Quebec (Lower Canada) was forced to fusion with Ontario (Upper Canada) with the Act of Union of 1840, following the troubles of 1837-1838. And the new colony (province of Canada) will fusion with the other british colony of the north america (Newfoundland will join late, in 1949) with the British North America Acts of 1867.

The SOLE purpose of this is to anihilate, on long term, all forms of french speaking people in the british north america. Lord Durham, in his report of 1839 that lead to the Act of Union : "A plan by which it is proposed to ensure the tranquil government of Lower Canada, must include in itself the means of putting an end to the agitation of national disputes in the legislature, by settling, at once and for ever, the national character of the Province. I entertain no doubts as to the national character which must be given to Lower Canada; it must be that of the British Empire; that of the majority of the population of British America; that of the great race which must, in the lapse of no long period of time, be predominant over the whole North American Continent. Without effecting the change so rapidly or so roughly as to shock the feelings and trample on the welfare of the existing generation, it must henceforth be the first and steady purpose of the British Government to establish an English population, with English laws and language, in this Province, and to trust its government to none but a decidedly English Legislature."

Enjoy.

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u/Dinomiteblast Sep 24 '22

In Belgium they banned all religious clothing or items for jobs that are public, meaning, you wont see a cross or a hijab on your local council public servant. Its because our state has to be neutral and church and state are divided.

Its called exclusive neutrality, public servants are to treat all citizens neutrally and without any form of religious point of view from the public servant. E.g. a muslim man cant comment on a western women not wearing a hijab.

Some organisations tried to override it by making it “inclusive neutrality” stating that the government should represent the inclusivity of our society. Which would mean religion is allowed onto the public servants workfloor and they can treat citizens from a religious point of view e.g. a muslim man might comment on a western woman not wearing a hijab.

Most christian people never made a fuzz about it, islam made a big deal out of it in Belgium.

The employer has a right to choose how you present yourself in Belgium as well (clothes etc) and islamic groupings tried to also have this altered by law as its “discriminating against them” but it isnt. Thats what living in a secular country does. Never understood why they moved here and then tryto have our laws changed.

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u/mcove97 Sep 24 '22

Thats what living in a secular country does. Never understood why they moved here and then tryto have our laws changed

Exactly. Some people will however say that it's discriminatory like you pointed out, but it's not like they don't discriminate in more religious countries. They just discriminate in a different way, and if they prefer that kind of discrimination where their religiousness is valued the most, then why the hell are they here?

Because they think it's better here clearly, so what they all complaining about.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 27 '22

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u/Wide_Connection9635 Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22

It's extremely complicated.

The idea of people just want 'choice' is not as easy as it is. There is a lot of issues involving community, social, power of the religious, power of the secularists...

More modern Muslims also get a bit fearful when they start to see too much religion. For many of them, they left such circumstances and then they start seeing it creep up here. It doesn't happen so much with the hijab, but most of older relatives find it abhorrent when the younger generation starts wearing niqab (full face cover) They don't understand it.

My general view is unless you're deeply aware of what you're supporting or not supporting, it's best to take a back seat and just let the people involved deal with it. The average Canadian shouldn't really be fighting for Muslim womene right to wear hijab/niqab or the right not to wear one.

I understand some Canadians even want to come to fight with 'we fight for everyone's right to choose,' but there's a bit too much complexity there to simply go at topics with that view in my view. If you protest for the niqab, you have no idea what groups you're siding with or empowering and ditto for the other side. These are big battles than just you have the right to do whatever.

These are battles that have been fought in Muslim countries over centuries between modernism and traditional, secular and religious, urban and rural. These battles don't just stop because it's suddenly in Canada. These same battles occur here. It's like if you want a campaign to support the hijab, you want to push a Muslim kids right to be transgender or marry a non-muslim or this or that in their community as well? It's far more complex and the notion of choice and freedom is also very complex.

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u/Monki_Coma Sep 23 '22 Gold

...but has the concept of "women having choices" gone too far? We have assembled this diverse panel of white men in bow ties to talk about the hijab.

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u/idunno-- Sep 24 '22

Genuinely how it feels watching redditors discuss the hijab.

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u/Busterlimes Sep 23 '22

Yeah, the fight isn't over the garment, its over freedom and womens rights.

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u/likenothingis Sep 23 '22

They don't want the government to ban it (Bill 21)

Let's be clear that bill 21 (projet de loi 21) is a Québec-only thing—not a Canada-wide one.

I'm ashamed to be Québecoise, and I don't want my country tarred by my province's idiocy.

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u/OutWithTheNew Sep 24 '22

Me, a Canadian, read the title and went "huh, the fuck are they talking about?"

Then I saw the first comment, "oh, this is that Quebec thing."

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u/igg73 Sep 23 '22

I remember the first time i learned about the October Crisis and it really disturbed my perception on canada, quebec and otherwise

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u/JayG3Rnaut Sep 23 '22

Beaten to death says all you need to know

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u/doowgad1 Sep 23 '22 Helpful

In both cases, it's about the individuals right to make their own choice.

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u/Pushbrown Sep 23 '22

yup, it's about freedom vs control, in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned which you should be allowed to do if you want, but in Iran you have to wear one or from what it seems like be killed. It's about the freedom to choose.

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u/INFJPersonality-52 Sep 23 '22

That was going to be my exact response. I don’t want governments telling us what we can or cannot wear. Those women have it pretty rough so I would certainly be in favor of letting them do whatever they like.

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u/Ask_me_4_a_story Sep 23 '22

Yeah it’s weird for a whole fuckin country to have a dress code, right?

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u/ur_canadian_brudda Sep 24 '22

in my house its no pants o'clock all the time, buddy.

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u/Xx_Time_xX Sep 23 '22

in Canada your freedom to wear a hijab is being questioned

Not in Canada. Only in Quebec. They're doing their own thing.

More reading: https://ccla.org/major-cases-and-reports/bill-21/

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u/Chiparoo Sep 23 '22

The more I hear about Quebec the more I conclude that Quebec is always doing their own thing

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u/idog99 Sep 24 '22

Quebec is such a strange place.

They are probably the most progressive and most secular province by every metric, except this hijab/niqab issue.

Quebec has always had a sensitivity to the idea of "outsiders" changing their distinct French culture.

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u/dirtyhappythoughts Sep 24 '22

Quebec has always had a sensitivity to the idea of "outsiders" changing their distinct French culture.

Which is a really French thing to do indeed.

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u/Wessssss21 Sep 24 '22

The québécois don't even let the french change their French culture. While French in France has adapted some anglacised words, Québec French does not as far as I know.

Example, in France it's typical to use le week-end for the weekend. Québécois french it's the traditional le fin de semaine literally "the end of the week"

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u/mpierre Sep 24 '22

I know you will ignore what I will say, but it's not the problem of outsiders, but the problem of insiders.

We used to be controlled by the Catholic Church which had deeply infiltrated and controlled the Quebec government.

In the 1960, all of that changed and we threw away the Church from the state.

But the church was wise. It GAVE us their seminaries (a few became colleges), but it kept a ton of its deep believers in place.

It created a sort of 2 layer bureaucracy. I know of people who got promoted ONLY because of their links in the Catholic church and others rejected for it.

I know of a girl who couldn't become a teacher because she wasn't Catholic.

Oh, it's not the state, it's the people who infiltrated the state that did that.

There were choke points for employment and the church tried to control them.

We became allergic to seeing the church in our state.

So, when people with hijabs start serving us, it brings memories of when people with crosses were serving (and judging) us.

Add that many immigrants choose English as a language, when we feel French is in regression, and you have a boiling point.

But usually, what people take out is just "so you ARE afraid of a hijab"

When it's the takeover by ANY religion of the state that scares us.

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u/NaughtyDreadz Sep 24 '22

Isn't the hijab issue part of secularism? You can't wear religious garb in a government position. You can wear it otherwise. So at a private job, or wherever else, it's fine. It's just doing governmental jobs. No hijab, wimple, turban, kippah or whatever other religious attire while working for the province of Quebec.

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u/Valdrax Sep 23 '22

And about 1 in 3 times, it's something xenophobic.

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u/relationship_tom Sep 24 '22

Ya for a lot. It's also about them not liking religion. Many of their swear words originate in the Catholic church.

I grew up in North Van so I knew a lot of Iranians. The majority that did wear some cover, would have a hell of a time with their family and social groups, deciding to stop. Having said that, all the ones I knew well didn't wear it and their families more liberal.

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u/OutWithTheNew Sep 24 '22

Tabarnac! I have never heard such nonsense. /s

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u/PhasmaFelis Sep 24 '22

Read a thing a while back about a guy running a tabletop RPG store in Quebec. The language police tried to tell him that at least 50% (I think?) of his inventory had to be in French. It took some doing to convince them that he already stocked every single French-language RPG in publication, and they only filled one shelf.

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u/hey_rowsdower Sep 23 '22

And 2 in 3 times, it's advancing social issues like the right to euthanasia while the rest of Canada eats timbits smugly

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u/ABCHI-STC Sep 23 '22

The only thing Canadians hate is French Canadians

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u/likenothingis Sep 23 '22

We're doing our very own wrong, dumb thing, and I can't wait until the SCC rules against Québec.

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u/1TenDesigns Sep 23 '22

Didn't Legault already preemptively use the Notwithstanding clause?

Same with the recent anti English law. He knows the shit he's pulling isn't legal, he just doesn't give a fuck.

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u/likenothingis Sep 23 '22

Yep, and yep.

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u/OKLISTENHERE Sep 24 '22

If he invokes notwithstanding, it's perfectly legal. That's how the Charter works.

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u/WinfriedJakob Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 24 '22

I think an SCC rule against Quebec will trigger a new independence movement in Quebec (I am proposing the term Quexit).

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u/WhyLisaWhy Sep 23 '22

Glad to see this stuff at the top. I get exhausted arguing with right wing Christians about this. I don’t give a shit what their religion is, but I support their right to wear whatever garment they want.

And people that circumcise babies and fight against women’s reproductive rights are in no place to point fingers at Muslims.

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u/Pushbrown Sep 23 '22

Ya people fail to understand what separation of church and state is, freedom of religion also mean freedom from religion, do what you want as long as you aren't violating peoples rights

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u/tinnic Sep 23 '22

A history YouTuber I follow, Kraut, put it best in his episode about Turkey when he said, "You may find forced secularism more acceptable than forced religiosity but the key word in both is forced."

People don't like being forced to dress how others want them to because how you dress is connected to your expression of self.

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u/TPM_Nur Sep 23 '22

Yes. Specifically about women’s natural right of choice versus mens control.

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u/watch_over_me Sep 23 '22

Is there a law in Canada stating woman can't wear hijabs?

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u/HearingConscious2505 Sep 23 '22

OK, seriously, screw you. Your avatar had me rubbing at my screen for longer than I would care to admit, until I realized it was just an image, and not a loose hair or something on my screen. I'M NOT HAPPY WITH YOU.

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u/watch_over_me Sep 23 '22

You've been punished by the dark mode gang.

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u/curiousmind111 Sep 23 '22

Yeah. Eyelash avatars are evil.

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u/No_Way_Outs Sep 23 '22

You and me both. Though admittedly you save me a few minutes.

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u/FoxyInTheSnow Sep 23 '22

Just in Quebec, where public employees cannot wear religious articles at work: this also extends to Jews wearing kippot and christians wearing crosses, etc, although I think (without looking it up because I'm lazy) the requirement for crosses is that they shouldn't be "ostentatious", whatever that means.

One of the big problems with this is that once it's codified into law, it can't help but stoke some degree of animus among some members of the secular public towards anyone wearing any religious identifier.

Jagmeet Singh is a turban-wearing Sikh, who also happens to be leader of a major Canadian political party (NDP, a democratic socialist party similar to UK's Labour party). In 2011, under a white, secular leader, the NDP won 59 out of 75 available seats in Quebec in a general election... they came quite close to forming the Canadian government, largely because of their landslide in Quebec.

If public sentiment is the same in the next federal election, I think it might be impossible for Singh to win that many seats, partly because he's a brown man in a turban… despite the fact that he's unusually handsome (for a politician).

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u/doowgad1 Sep 23 '22

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u/randomchic123 Sep 23 '22

Is it tho

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u/LowZestyclose66 Sep 23 '22

No. The internet is your enemy.

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u/genericperson10 Sep 23 '22

Is it tho

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u/DidntWantSleepAnyway Sep 23 '22

The internet is a slow burn enemies-to-lovers fanfic.

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u/MFoy Sep 23 '22

The great thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want.

The awful thing about the internet is that anyone can say whatever they want.

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u/MartyVanB Sep 23 '22

Huge caveat here

Judge Marc-Andre Blanchard said in his 240-page ruling that the Quebec government could restrict religious symbols like the Muslim hijab, Sikh turban, Jewish kippa and Christian cross if worn by civil servants while they serve the public.

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u/Orange_Kitty5 Sep 23 '22

They're actually basically fighting for the same thing. To dress how they want to without harassment or legal trouble.

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u/steve2phonesmackabee Sep 23 '22

Or outright violence.

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u/Marvos79 Sep 23 '22

This is the correct answer.

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u/moeburn Sep 24 '22

Yeah in Quebec they were firing teachers for wearing a hijab because they're afraid the kids are going to catch muslim or something.

"We're going to liberate women, by making sure the most oppressed ones can't have a job, support a family, or afford rent!"

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u/Red_AtNight Sep 23 '22

The Québec provincial government passed a law banning certain public-facing public servants (like schoolteachers) from wearing "religious symbols" such as crosses or hijabs.

The activists argued that this was unfairly discriminatory to minority women, because it forced them to choose between following their faith, or keeping their jobs.

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u/LadyLothlorien Sep 23 '22

Everyone is fighting for their own right to choose.

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u/JayR_97 Sep 23 '22

Yep. My view is: "You do you, but the moment you try and force that on other people, we're gonna have a problem"

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u/modsarebrainstems Sep 23 '22

I'm not defending this stuff, I'm just trying to help you understand something.

The Quebec government is doing what it does because it doesn't want the influence of any religion in anything it has dominion over.

I honestly don't see what difference any of this makes but I'm pretty sure that that's the Quebec government's rationale, anyway.

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u/racermd Sep 23 '22

The only thing I'm intolerant of is intolerance.

And broccoli. Fuck broccoli.

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u/catscannotcompete Sep 23 '22

How are you preparing your broccoli? Broccoli is like top 3 delicious vegetables.

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u/roygbivasaur Sep 23 '22

Roasted broccoli is to die for. So much surface area for crispiness and salt

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u/shiny_xnaut Sep 24 '22

Large roasted broccoli drizzled with nacho cheese and held/eaten like an ice cream cone is probably the best carnival food I've ever had

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u/MtogdenJ Sep 23 '22

Even if your not a fan of veggies, broccoli is like top 3 carrier of delicious sauces.

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u/TheGreatDay Sep 23 '22

You take that back! Roast Broccoli is my ride or die!

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u/bbq-biscuits-bball Sep 23 '22

this is the correct answer

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u/PapaStoner Sep 23 '22

Thing is theyŕe fighting only on religious based restrictions, there is a far older law that bans all that bans government employees from displaying their political affiliation. There!s a lot of other things public sector employees aren't allowed to wear too. But religion gets to have a special treatment because reasons.

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u/Anony_mouse202 Sep 23 '22

It’s the same as the law in France.

The government has to appear religiously neutral, so public facing public servants can’t wear religious symbols of a certain size.

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u/throneofthe4thheaven Sep 24 '22

I don’t really see a problem with that. Kinda weird that public school teachers can wear crosses.

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u/moeburn Sep 24 '22

The government has to appear religiously neutral,

Oh no that's the best part. They passed this law underneath a crucifix. A little dead Jesus on a wooden cross on the wall in the legislature, above and adjacent to the Quebec flag.

And then, when someone pointed out the GLARING hypocrisy in this, they tried to argue "a crucifix is not a religious symbol"!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-francois-legault-crucifix-religious-symbols-1.4858757

I definitely have a problem with a government appearing to favour a certain religion. But a woman in a hijab teaching my kids is not that.

Firing a woman for wearing a hijab with a law passed underneath a crucifix, that's a government that doesn't appear religiously neutral.

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u/jhystad Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

This is a clean, consise and unbiased answer. Thanks

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u/lydicurous Sep 23 '22

The thing is, if this is a law similar to that in France, wearing "religious symbols" isn’t forbidden if they don’t exceed 1.5 centimeters. It’s quite hard for a hijab not to surpass 1.5 centimeters.

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u/Abadazed Sep 23 '22

But very easy for something like a small cross.

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u/lydicurous Sep 23 '22

Exactly, or a six pointed star.

Which is good for people who want to wear them. But a law so specific seems to be there for a specific "religious symbol"

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u/JohnnyMelon Sep 23 '22

Fighting for individual freedom

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u/Yuo_cna_Raed_Tihs Sep 23 '22

Consider that in the US, women fought for the right to abortions, but in China, they fought for the right to not have to abort or otherwise get rid of their second child

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u/Lussekatt1 Sep 24 '22

It’s about having the right to choose and not having the government force something onto you

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u/mugenhunt Sep 23 '22

It's more that they are fighting for the right to wear what they want and to have the freedom to choose how they dress.

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u/Smiles1990 Sep 24 '22

Put simply: Do you want be banned from wearing certain clothing that you want to wear? No

Do you want to be forced to wear something you don’t want to wear? No

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u/UncleIrohsPimpHand Sep 24 '22

Because it's about giving them a choice.

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u/badb-crow Sep 23 '22

What most of them are actually fighting for is for women to be able to chose for themselves. Being forced to do anything against your will is bad, but that doesnt mean you should also be forced to not do it. For some women, the hijab is an important part of their relationship with their faith. For others, it's not. It's like Christians choosing to wear a cross or not.

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u/Anders_A Sep 24 '22

Because in Canada, it's a choice. So they're fighting for everyone's right to choose. In Iran, it's not a choice. So they're also fighting for everyone's right to choose.

It's no about the hijabs. It's about freedom to choose.

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u/drgloryboy Sep 23 '22

Women just want to be able to choose for themselves

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u/aaronite Sep 23 '22

In both cases it's about the right of women to choose.

You may see the hijab as a sign of oppression, but I know women personally who choose it even against the wishes of their family. For them it's a symbol of their faith.

The key here is choice: she chooses to wear it or not. No one else.

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u/NeverRarelySometimes Sep 23 '22

I saw an interview years ago, with a religious woman who explained that she opposed the law requiring hijab. She said that hers represents her own commitment to modesty; if everyone has to do it, hers means nothing.

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u/steve2phonesmackabee Sep 23 '22

They want to be able to make a choice about what they wear or don't wear on their own body.

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u/dependabledepression Sep 23 '22

In Canada, they weren't allowed to, in Iran they're forced to wear them. The whole thing is about whether or not the individual chooses to wear them, and whether they can make that choice or not.

Think of it like a school dress code, girls can't wear spaghetti straps most times, but they fight to be able to, not saying they will wear them but it's about the right to choose to do so.

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u/Noback68 Sep 23 '22

Perfect explanation.

I vote for the right to choose. Each person's personal opinion has no effect on my own. Do what you do, rockstars!

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u/InscrutableAudacity Sep 23 '22

They were both fighting for women to be allowed to choose whether or not to wear a hijab.

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u/Any1canC00k Sep 24 '22

It’s like one country banning ice cream and another forcing you to eat it for every meal.

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

Choice is an empowering thing.

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u/Buick_reference3138 Sep 23 '22

A little thing called Freedom.

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u/Petit_Lutin Sep 24 '22

Women all around the world are just fighting for the right to wear whatever the fuck they want. It's about rights and not policing them not the hijab.

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u/ItzWolfyDood Sep 23 '22

everyones fighting for the ability to choose.

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u/black-rhombus Sep 23 '22

They're not fighting not to wear a hijab in Iran. They're taking off their hijab in protest in Iran.

In Canada some people wanted to ban hijabs - basically ban aspects of a religion - which some didn't think was right.

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u/motion_bum Sep 23 '22

Wrong. In one province of Canada a law has been passed to ban public facing government employees such as teachers wearing any type of religious symbol

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u/guerrieredelumiere Sep 24 '22

Only positions of authority. The average office clerk helping you fill your paperwork isn't included.

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u/MilRet Sep 23 '22

There's a difference between having a right, and being forced.

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u/Jenna2k Sep 24 '22

They are fighting for the right to choose. They want the same right.

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u/8OnAGoodDay7IfNot Sep 24 '22

They're fighting for the right to make the choice for themselves.

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u/whycantijustlogin Sep 23 '22

Because regulating what women (and only women) wear on their heads is misogynist and controlling no matter what the regulations are.

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u/Anatolysdream Sep 24 '22 edited Sep 24 '22

It's the same issue — government authorities controlling women — just opposite sides. Except in Iran, the police/government is killing women (and protesters).

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u/lnug4mi Sep 24 '22

because they are, both fighting for the freedom to choose when and where and if they wear a Hijab. They are fighting for their right to be themselves, and not being forced to follow some religious asshat's decisions that was made for them.

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u/Original_Mastodon_68 Sep 24 '22

Because it’s not all about the hijab, it’s about giving women the right to choose what does and doesn’t go on their bodies.

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u/innerentity Sep 24 '22

They're both fighting for the freedom to express themselves, and to make their own decisions

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u/Kuma9194 Sep 24 '22

People want to be free to either wear it or not, not be told one way or the other. It's essentially the same fight just two different sides.

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u/DV_Zero_One Sep 24 '22

Both groups are fighting for choice.

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u/DonatellaK Sep 24 '22

They’re all fighting for the same thing - the right to choose

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u/ChemistryJaq Sep 24 '22

I worked with some girls whose dad forbid them from wearing hijabs unless they were going to the mosque because he didn't want them getting murdered. In the USA. Now they're adults, moved out, and chose for themselves to always wear them.

It's having the ability to choose for themselves without fear of repercussions

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u/DMcuteboobs Sep 24 '22

Because it should be a free choice, left to the individual.

Replace “blue socks” with “hijab” if you can’t understand

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u/Hogwarts_Earth2 Sep 23 '22

It's not about the hijab. It's about choice.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '22

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u/warrior_female Sep 23 '22

both are about the freedom to choose.

forcing people to wear something (outside of extenuating circumstances such as ppe) and banning people from wearing something (like in india, canada, and France) are both equally bad.

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u/vazzaroth Sep 23 '22

One is a protest of allowance (Don't control what we can wear), another is a protest of compliance (You MUST wear this or ELSE!) so in this instance, they're for the same thing: Autonomy.

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u/sotonohito Sep 23 '22

The linkage is choice.

Women want the freedom to choose what to wear instead of being told what they may, or may not, wear.

The issue is not "hajib bad" the issue is "forcing people to wear a hajib is bad" and also "forcing people NOT to wear a hajib is bad". It's the forcing part that's the problem not the hajib part.

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u/roguluvr Sep 24 '22

Because Quebec is so progressive they’re regressive lmao

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u/Keenan95 Sep 24 '22

Its not Canada its Quebec.

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u/cwf63 Sep 24 '22

They're fighting for a womans right to choose.

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u/RandomPersonInCanada Sep 24 '22

The point that everyone is missing is that no matter where you are, whoever you are, you should be entitled to choose how you would like to live your personal life, if you don’t want to wear the hijab, don’t wear the hijab, if you would like to wear it, then wear it, we the people gave so much power to the governments around the world that instead of caring for the economy, education, health, infrastructure and wellbeing of the people and planet, the governments now became entitled of telling you what to do, how to behave and who to believe in your personal life. It is our fault, we must correct it by voting for better candidates.

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u/Enginerdad Sep 24 '22

They're actually both fighting for the same thing, freedom of choice. In Iran women HAVE to wear them, no choice. In Canada, some people were trying to get them banned, again no choice. Both groups want women to be able to wear or not wear them at their own choosing, in addition to a whole bunch of other rights the current Iran situation is working for.

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u/Content-Zucchini-172 Sep 26 '22

They don't fight against or for the hijab. They are fighting for their right and the freedom to make their own decision about wearing it.

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u/clarkcox3 Sep 26 '22

It's not a difficult concept. They're fighting for the same thing: the right to wear what they want.

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u/helenpraspro Sep 27 '22

They're just fighting for a freaking CHOICE! why is that so hard to understand?

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u/dangleicious13 Sep 23 '22

I doubt they were protesting to force women to wear it in Canada.