r/OutOfTheLoop Aug 17 '22 Wholesome 1

What's the deal with many women on social media sharing this psychology today article about the rise of single men? Answered

Link to the article here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/the-rise-lonely-single-men

I first noticed the headline being shared by various women on my facebook and instagram feed.

Then I noticed it on r/twoxchromosomes in this thread here: https://old.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/wpxi45/spoiler_alert_more_men_are_single_now_because/

The article itself basically concludes that men need to properly work on themselves and yes I agree with that, but the way it's being shared is reading to me like there's an element of bitterness under the surface.

Why is this something that's being celebrated so much?

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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Bravo! LOVE! Narwhal Salute Wholesome Seal of Approval Bravo Grande! Starstruck I'll Drink to That Take My Power

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u/KaijuTia Aug 17 '22 Gold Helpful Take My Energy

I guess, in a way, the incels were right: feminism IS the reason they can’t get a girlfriend. Because feminism told women they were allowed to have standards and didn’t have to settle for the first Y chromosome that flopped itself in front of them

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u/Consistent_Policy_66 Aug 17 '22

Paraphrasing here, but I read a thing somewhere

Future partners are not competing against each other, they are competing against the individual’s baseline happiness when they are alone. Partners need to improve each other’s lives.

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u/KaijuTia Aug 17 '22

Of course! If being in a relationship makes you less happy than being single, then the relationship should be ended.

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u/Klumania Aug 17 '22

the first Y chromosome that flopped itself in front of them

This conjures image of a single fish-sized sperm flopping around on the floor and it makes me uncomfortable XD

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u/lordsmish Aug 17 '22

Bloody feminism they ruined my housewife dream now I have to put up with my independent strong working wife who makes the same money as me and contributes equally to bills , house and pub crawls.

GOD WHAT AN AWFUL SIDE EFFECT OF FEMINISM THIS IS HOWEVER WILL WE RAISE A CHILD IN THIS ENVIROMENT.

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u/TheForanMan Aug 17 '22

I have a friend since middle school who’s brother has also known me since we have known each other and he apparently has a low opinion of me because my wife makes more money than I do. I think about it every now and then and laugh at how he’s still working for his dad a decade after high school for shit pay and has found a wife who is more than happy to chill at home making no money for the household. But if it makes him “feel like a man” to struggle so hard, then more power to him. I’m content being the house husband if it means I’m living in a nicer house than I would ever have by myself. Lol

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u/Due_Distribution9193 Aug 17 '22

This post really resonates with me. I had a close male friend who used to make fun of me for being a stay-at-home Dad. He’d call me “Mr. Mom,” a “simp/beta,” and “a glorified babysitter.” He couldn’t believe that I’d “let my wife earn more money than me.” It got so bad his own wife divorced him. Her main reason: he did almost zero childcare or housework. I got a good kick out of that. We don’t speak anymore.

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u/Just_some_n00b Aug 17 '22

I usually just own it by telling those people I'm a "trophy husband" and watching their heads spin.

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u/hobskhan Aug 17 '22

It's almost as if the patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurts almost everyone either directly or indirectly! Shocker!!!

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u/TheForanMan Aug 17 '22

Yeah that checks out. Guys like that wouldn’t feel like they need to help because they believe going to work every day is more than enough for the family and they are “doing their role.” It’s genuinely tragic that that kid is going to grow up with divorced parents just because their father is apparently intolerably insecure.

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u/Incredulouslaughter Aug 17 '22

Yup my mate left my other mate because she figured out life would just be easier without him.. it is. We warned him about it. He said "I put food on the table" bro that's the bare minimum of parenting.

Why keep a shit dad around? It's just another kid. Now he's fucked because she did all his admin for him and he doesn't know how to do it. Age:50. I think the article typifies him.

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u/WorkingInAColdMind Aug 17 '22

I’m still hoping to become a kept man, but after 30+ years of marriage I’m starting to think it’s not gonna happen.

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u/Guac_in_my_rarri Aug 17 '22

I know somebody like your friends brother. They asked me who was taking care of the kiddos when they come around. I said I was-ill be the house hubs. I can go hunting, fishing, etc with my kiddos and be supported or I can find a wfh job and take care of them. Haven't heard from the dude in 2 years and I'm better off. No kids tho. My wife will end up making significantly more money than me due to the nature of her job.

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u/UncleFlip Aug 17 '22

Dude I wish my wife made more than me. I don't understand that mentality. Come to think of it, they are probably insecure and afraid they can't handle it at some unconscious level. Whatever it is I don't get it.

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u/TheForanMan Aug 17 '22

It’s absolutely insecurity. I’m not sure if there even is another possible reason. For some reason they feel that they are less of a man when their wife brings more money into the household. They think of it as a competition when the reality should be that they see themselves and their wife as partners working to help maintain the same house.

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u/porkpie1028 Aug 17 '22

Lol, he has a low opinion of you because you have a woman who wants and chooses to be with you.

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u/jpaxonreyes Aug 17 '22

But how are you supposed to safely mistreat your wife if she isn't financially-dependent on you? /s

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u/KaijuTia Aug 17 '22

GODDAMN FEMINISM! Women nowadays expect me to not have a shit personality and to wash my balls?!?

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u/lordsmish Aug 17 '22

The balls are meant to stink...thats how you know they are working correctly.

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u/devttherevenant Aug 17 '22

I've not read a comment that grossed me out and made me laugh so hard in a while. Kudos!

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u/ASK_ME_IF_IM_A_TRUCK Aug 17 '22

What the fuck

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u/DrSpankums Aug 17 '22

Are you a Truck?

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u/super-ramen-boi Aug 17 '22

I thought this was just a weird rhyme until I read their username lol

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u/wildgaytrans Aug 17 '22

We wash ours, so it's only fair y'all wash yours.

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u/EmptyVisage Aug 17 '22

Most incels I've talked to feel like they have no real value other than monetarily, so a relationship like that would seem to be extremely unbalanced to them. It's deep insecurity, mostly. That said, I've not met many who actually blame feminism directly for any of this, their focus is always on hypergamy. They also don't seem to believe in love, value emotional support and connection, and seem to thing the majority of women are sociopaths. It's not too surprising that they're incel.

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u/kigurumibiblestudies Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22 Starry

They do believe in it, but don't believe women do. I've seen a behavior I consider very strange, which is quite common: the guy lists his wage, his hobbies, physical shape, etc. and asks why women don't like him. He believes he has collected all the badges and is therefore fully qualified for the job; "therefore, I should receive love, yet I don't, which means women don't love".

Of course, if you talk to him you'll notice he's strange, suspicious or just "off" somehow, and the answer will be rather evident... To everyone but him. Yet he's not aware or refuses to listen, because their mindset states that getting a girlfriend is an achievement, one you work for, not a relationship that happens fortuitously, and the one thing they'd need to fix (their personality and emotional connections) is the one thing they are not willing to. Understandable, because it's extremely difficult, but unless they accept this, they'll continue to struggle blindly.

Edit: I am not claiming it is unique to men. I simply interact with men who do this and have no idea about women who do it.

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u/AutumnCountry Aug 17 '22

Motherfuckers really thinking this is a video game and you just gotta unlock the right stats

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

Have you tried turning it off and on again?

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u/cftygg Aug 17 '22

Yea, but with no practice in place old habbits take over.

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u/sjb2059 Aug 17 '22

Well yes, many men do try this, and discover that people don't turn back on again when you turn them off. Hense why women are so cautious around men who give off these vibes.

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

Hoo that got dark...

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u/floutsch Aug 17 '22

Yeah, it's all a bunch of bullshit. The times I jumped, jumped, crouched, crouched, stepped to the left, stepped to the right, stepped to the left, stepped to the right, blinked right, blinked left, and still no horny women (*) appeared :(

*) And while we're at it, don't even get me started on those popups! Must be some kind of translation error. I asked each and every single woman in my neighborhood, and without exception they we're furious instead of horny.

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u/lordsmish Aug 17 '22

The way you say he's collected the badges is giving me pokemon vibes so now i can only imagine an incel with all the gym badges trying to work out why his level 95 woman won't obey his commands.

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

It's very difficult to address a generalized creepiness. It can't be specifically targeted for explanation, and if it could, I'm not sure anything could be done about it.

I guess we've entered a phase where the two societal values of "everyone deserves love" and "nobody should settle" are coming into conflict.

Often incels are correct when they identify themselves as low value males - though usually for the wrong reasons - there's not much which can be done about that. A generalized air of creepiness may be an inalienable characteristic. What then?

We don't seem to have any solutions to this problem.

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u/CheeserAugustus Aug 17 '22 Heartwarming

None of these guys seem to realize that romantic partners are closer to close friendships than business arrangements.

Have they ever got a best friend because they had a good job or a car? Have they ever turned someone away from being a friend because they were just weird?

The girl has to WANT TO HANG WITH YOU first and foremost. Now a richer guy might get away with more weirdness, but nobody wants to be uncomfortable around their partner all the time in exchange for a ride in a Tesla.

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

That's a good point.

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u/psimwork Aug 17 '22

The girl has to WANT TO HANG WITH YOU first and foremost.

I also think (and I say this from personal experience as someone who almost became an incel, but had enough insight to continually realize that it was a problem with me, rather than externalizing my problems) that a TON of guys simply don't know how to risk rejection, and walk away in the event of it.

So like, I spent the better part of 4 years in a 'friendship' that was purely platonic on her end. For me, I was DESPERATELY in love, and I kept using all the standard excuses ("I don't wanna ruin the friendship!", "we're just friends! Honest!", "she'll come around at some point", "I'm playing the long game - eventually I'll wear her down") but what it really was is that I knew she wasn't interested in me, romantically, but as long as she hadn't specifically told me "no", then in my mind, I thought someday she might take the risk for me and ask me out.

And even if we started out as just friends, if I had recognized that feelings were developing and asked her out EARLY, rejection wouldn't have hurt that badly, and honestly I probably stood a much better shot than the way I went.

But I (and I'd wager a ton of guys like me) was unwilling to take that risk, because I just couldn't make myself risk the rejection. I really wish I would have had the guts to just walk away. Would that have been fair to her? No - it's not fair that a continued friendship with me would have been contingent on a romantic relationship. But that goes both ways - because it wouldn't have been fair to me to stay in the friendship when I wanted more, and became more and more bitter every time she got a new boyfriend (which is what ended up happening).

Anyway, I've gone off track reliving bad memories. The point is, staying in a "friendship" because one person is hoping for more is usually going to end up with someone being intensely bitter.

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u/TheMostKing Aug 17 '22

You can shake off your creepiness through socializing and introspection. Off course, it can be harder to socialize if you're perceived as off-putting, but there are plenty of areas where you can hang out and casually interact with people. Hobbies come to mind.

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u/sad_boi_jazz Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

I don't think creepiness is an inalienable characteristic. I think it comes from a sense of entitlement, which can be adjusted, but not without pushback from the surrounding culture.

The problem is, a lot of men who identify as incels or otherwise in the manosphere live in self-reinforcing bubbles on the internet. Most of us do and that's a problem in itself but my specific issue with the manosphere bubble is that it never allows these men to really question the role of women in their lives or why they can't get a date - it keeps looping back to "no, its these women who are the problem, with their desire to be treated with respect because that's what feminism taught them!"

With the reinforcement of these beliefs comes violence when those beliefs are challenged. It's never not been a scary time to be a women, but the rise of incel culture and the manosphere have been really concerning.

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

I think the creepiness is a seperate issue. It's the combination of creepiness + entitlement that causes the problem. An entitled person may be an asshole, but they can probably get laid as long as they're not creepy. A creepy person without entitlement will not get laid but will acknowledge they deserve it. The problem arises when the creepy meets entitlement.

It's what I mean by "everyone deserves love" - ie entitlement, and "people shouldn't have to settle" ie creepy people aren't getting laid.

Generalized creepiness is not a belief, it's a quality or vibe that someone gives off. It's the kind of vibe like you can imagine that they smell bad even if all you see is a picture. It's a kind of instinctive thing, like your biology is telling you by some mysterious means that they are yuck people. Even before you know what they think about anything or how they behave.

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u/UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2 Aug 17 '22

like your biology is telling you by some mysterious means that they are yuck people

I think it's much more accurate to identify this as "your subconscious" rather than "your biology". This comment reminded me so much of The Body Keeps the Score

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u/0n3ph Aug 17 '22

That's probably right. I'm just trying to describe how it feels, not the mechanism.

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u/Animegirl300 Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

Yeah: I feel like creepiness is directly tied to a feeling of ‘danger’ and that it usually comes from the person not understanding their physical and verbal social cues are communicating that they are a direct threat to the person in front of them.

It’s the little things, like lack of personal space/following a person around, too much staring or eye contact, and intrusive questions or statements. All those things are all considered aggressive body language— But they usually come not necessarily because the guy is thinking of hurting you, but as an unconscious form of control over the interaction. Like the guy had an idea of how he wants this interaction to go and he is unconsciously trying to lead you to that conclusion. Problem is, this means that he isn’t giving you a choice to come to that conclusion on your own. So it is inherently manipulative and this comes out in their body language.

Women scientifically speaking also develop social cues much earlier than men, some of it from socialization, but also biologically based on the concept that we are more physically vulnerable, so we also are a lot more sensitive to these social cues.

So even when the guy isn’t being OBVIOUSLY ominous, sometimes these behaviors still slip in to the interaction. They start standing way too damn close for someone you don’t know too well, or you haven’t even have a real conversation before he’s asking if you have a boyfriend and that communicates that their priority is fucking you without regard to your personhood, which can then even signal to a person that you could be a target of rape if you aren’t careful. The intrusive statements could also be tied into this— If a guy is already making jokes stereotyping women, then he is communicating that he doesn’t see you as a person either, but a caricature of some sort.

So I definitely agree with you that entitlement itself is slightly separate from creepiness , but I think that this might explain where that creepiness is coming from.

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u/kigurumibiblestudies Aug 17 '22

Agreed. Honestly, after your twenties, it requires so much humility and flexibility to relearn how to be a socially acceptable person that I doubt it's even possible for people who are that far.

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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '22

Lots of people treat relationships as transactional. If I do or have X then I am entitled to Y.

Its such an odd way to look at the world, as if everyone is just a product of what they can do for you.

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u/Blenderhead36 Aug 17 '22

Man, I am so glad I was born in 1986, not 1996. I look at the angry, frustrated young man I was in college. I did a lot of growing over those four years, and am now happily married.

If incel communities had popped up a few years earlier, I would not have grown during college. I would doubled down and won the misery competition. And I would not currently be happily married.

That shit is dangerous.

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u/veggiesama Aug 17 '22

Also born in 1986, also old enough to think that "red pill" is only referring to Neo and Morpheus chattin' bout sci-fi shit. Also grew up in the gaming world and adjacent to the anime avatar idiots.

Why did I end up different? IDK, but Gamergate had something to do with it. By that time I was already a liberal arts graduate with multiple long term relationships under my belt, so my reaction to Anita Sarkeesian was "oh that's a neat perspective" instead of laughing at videos of her getting punched in the face.

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u/sad_and_stupid Aug 17 '22

Then you haven't been on a lot of incel subs. A lot of them blame the women's rights movement on everything and say that it was better before women had voting rights. Most incel and redpill subs are banned but they were really really hateful, but then they had to start moderating more when the reddit bans started

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u/EmptyVisage Aug 17 '22

Funnily enough, 'incel' communities are only a very small proportion of all incels, and act kind of like a poison pot. All the moderates get pushed out by the crazy and what's left only concentrates until you're left with such toxic sludge that there's no way to sanitize it, and then they get banned. That's not to say there aren't a lot of people who are deranged, but they are extremists, and not representative of the majority. Most incels are pretty much just insecure and too sheltered, often with pretty conservative families that give them terrible standards.

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u/frogger2504 Aug 17 '22

act kind of like a poison pot

Bingo. A lot of genuinely involuntarily celibate men will start off as just kind of sad young men who were raised poorly and don't understand the way relationships are meant to work because they were never taught or never saw it. It's not really their fault, and it's kind of sad. But then they find these communities of people who go "Yeah man, it sucks, we don't get what we're doing wrong either" and that feels welcoming. But then someone in that community starts to go "I know what we're doing wrong and it's nothing; It's the women who are wrong!" and that feels really comforting to accept, because it fucking sucks to admit to yourself that you're the one who is messed up, and it's really easy to hear that everyone else is to blame. After all, you've never overtly done anything wrong, so how could it be you?

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u/BuckyDX Aug 17 '22

I’m not espousing original thoughts here, but this is definitely not a group solvable problem. Any one that joins and incel group and finds their own way out isn’t coming back to help others out. The only long term members will be people that can’t crack the nut and this will only concentrate and amplify with the passing of time.

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u/frogger2504 Aug 17 '22

I completely agree, which means the problem as a whole is quite difficult. The only real solution I can think of is just to talk about the attractiveness of emotional stability and good communication, and hope that they someday get it. You're absolutely right that no one is going to be willing to actively engage with those communities to try and pull people out.

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u/sad_and_stupid Aug 17 '22

I see what you mean, I mostly meant people who actually consider themselves incels and are part of the community, not just men who are technically 'involuntary celibates' but don't label themselves as such.

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u/EmptyVisage Aug 17 '22

Ah of course, that makes sense. It was definitely never my intention to imply people like that don't exist, I know people have had awful experiences with that sort. I just truly believe they are a tiny minority of incels, even though as you kindly pointed out many of them don't use the label.

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u/catsinlittlehats Aug 17 '22

The thing is, women worked their asses off to get to where they are. To be able to be in control of their own money and assets, to be educated, have a good career, and also know how to run a household. Women busted their butts for decades to accomplish this. Now men need to catch up in the communication, emotion, and household departments. It’s men’s turn to put in work. Men are fully capable of this but it takes acknowledging the problems and putting in effort to change it.

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u/raspberrih Aug 17 '22

It's always those who need therapy that refuse to go to therapy

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u/EunuchsProgramer Aug 17 '22

I've read from them over and over they need to go to Russia or somewhere in Asia to find a wife uncorrupted by Feminism who won't be in denial of her genetically determined gender roles. This will the start a long debate, over whether the women in said country have already been corrupted by Feminism.

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u/TheNextBattalion Aug 17 '22

Half the time, those brides are in fact "corrupted" but willing to suck it up for a while... and the moment they're legally able to leave the relationship and stay in the country, they do.

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u/BlackSilkEy Aug 17 '22

Because feminism was to blame for all those women leaving at the first chance they got right?

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u/watercastles Aug 17 '22

Raising a child? In this economy??

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u/ohbenito Aug 17 '22

ol pop said it best. you catch the fish you do because of the bait you use.

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u/LoveAndProse Aug 17 '22 Gold

I'm not arguing because I can't speak for straight men, but as a bi guy, gay men treat me significantly better than straight women.

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u/kittenstixx Aug 17 '22

Do you mean in the context of a relationship, or just in the dating scene? Because I've heard a not insignificant amount of women are biphobic, im curious if that's your experience.

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u/bunker_man Aug 17 '22

I've heard a not insignificant amount of women are biphobic

Including ones who are bisexual!

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u/LoveAndProse Aug 17 '22

That's a great question!

Honestly Ive been in the dating scene more than relationships with men, and with women the opposite lmao.

Which to that end I've been around women who are comfortable around me and show more true colors typically than the men who are on their best behavior lol. So I have a very unequal set of personal experience.

Luckily the women I've been in a relationship with have been very accepting of my sexuality, but on the dating end it has at times been "problematic". I consider it a solution because if saying "I'm bi" chases bigots out of my life, I would have come out way sooner lol

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u/VoilaVoilaWashington Aug 17 '22 Gold Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Bravo Grande!

I think this is an important point - in my experience as a very happily single guy, a lot of women also need to work on their emotional availability and communication and all that.

The issues in the article cut both ways - women get all the attention on dating apps, but that causes issues around how they select men and all that.

From a woman's perspective, most men are problematic. From a man's perspective, most women are problematic. We can afford to be more choosy today, and so more people are single waiting for a good match.

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u/Blenderhead36 Aug 17 '22 Take My Energy

I met my wife on OKcupid right before Tinder took off. Tinder has always struck me as a toxic place to look for an SO because of how easy it is. It requires so little input and matches happen automatically. That means it's really easy to say, "Nah, not perfect, let's try again."

If we're talking about a hook-up, that's fine; you probably shouldn't be having casual sex with someone you don't find attractive and safe. But looking for an emotional connection, Jesus Christ. That sounds absolutely brutal. If both people have to look at the other and say, "Yes, perfect," before anything can even start, you're going to wind up so jaded, so fast.

The thing I always remember was that OKcupid had a "compatibility rating," displayed as a percent. My rule of thumb was to seriously examine anyone at 85% or more. My wife, the unreserved love of my life, was an 84%. Be willing to try things out is just so, so important for romantic success, and it's something that Tinder does not incentivize.

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u/empenn Aug 17 '22

Chiming in as I also found my husband on OKC before this Tinder madness really took off. As a woman, I loved reading profiles (in which people actually talked about themselves and put effort into) and messaging men I was interested in first. Had many great conversations and dates that way with more control over who I interacted with, as well as finding my husband! Tinder is way to watered down and gamified imo like you said.

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u/Blenderhead36 Aug 17 '22

Tinder madness

I don't think it's madness. I think it's pretty understandable. Somebody looked at Grindr and said, "Man, I wish there was one of those for straight people," and was off to the races. The problem is that the dating culture of M4M is very different from other relationship models. Again, if you're looking for a night of uncomplicated casual sex with someone looking for the same, Tinder is damn near perfect. But the whole, "no strings attached, no investment" model doesn't work for something that pretty definitionally takes work.

Tinder is a good tool being used for something it was never designed for.

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u/Sonamdrukpa Aug 17 '22

It was designed to get people to use it addictively and it's great at that

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u/mdonaberger Aug 17 '22

Hey! A fellow 'met my wife on okcupid right before Tinder' person! Fucking okcupid said that we would be 50% enemies. We've been together for a decade!

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u/BlasterPhase Aug 17 '22

Tinder has always struck me as a toxic place to look for an SO because of how easy it is.

I must have downloaded the wrong app

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u/sweadle Aug 17 '22

All dating apps are tools. You can use it like a phone game, always swiping and looking for something better. Or you can use it thoughtfully, not to rack up likes, and stop swiping when you are talking to a few people.

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u/hugglesthemerciless Aug 17 '22 Gold Take My Energy

People like to pretend like one or the other gender is full of issues when the reality is that simply most humans suck.

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u/FireworksNtsunderes Aug 17 '22 Silver Take My Energy

Maybe this is too positive for reddit but I don't think most humans suck. I think most humans have problems that are hard to fix and we choose to lambast them instead of communicating and helping. Everyone is flawed and that doesn't mean they suck. That said, unfortunately a few negative traits like lack of empathy are rewarded in modern, capitalist society so the humans that do suck are disproportionately represented.

You'd be surprised by how many seemingly awful people can turn around and become amazing human beings when given time and empathy - something many of us are unfortunately not allotted.

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u/ProlongedMaintenance Aug 17 '22

The truest thing I've read all day

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u/LoveAndProse Aug 17 '22

I'm happy my reply wasn't taken as just a dig on straight women. Proper communication is a human hurdle we all struggle with and should be seeking to improve.

I don't think it helps us to paint big broad strokes if we aren't willing to use the broadest brushes we have (like discussing the modern dating issues rather than painting either gender or sexuality as the underlying issue)

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u/miss_tomie Aug 17 '22

the dating world is definitely complicated today. i absolutely LOATHE when people judge the state of dating based on DATING APPS... i know there are success stories, but what a way to defeat yourself before you even get started if tinder is some people's only frame of reference.

painting it as a gendered problem doesn't help, either. can't count how many colleagues of mine have said "i wish i were gay, dealing with men/women would be WAY easier." the fact i've heard this equal amounts from both genders kind of proves the point that it ISN'T a gendered thing, and that just dating a different group of people isn't going to magically make their dating problems go away.

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u/LoveAndProse Aug 17 '22

Totally agree 👍 I've had better but more limited experience with men, but I don't think that indicative of an underlying trend, just anecdote.

I've met some extremely toxic gay men, just as I've met a toxic versions of about every gender, sexuality, religion or ethnicity. People can really suck, but people are also fucking awesome. Painting skin deep generalizations rather than speaking with nuance and understanding is a great way to further polarize the issue.

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u/ostertoaster1983 Aug 17 '22

You're right, it's like.... all people are individuals and stereotyping them based on gender or other skin deep criteria isn't an ideal way to structure our mindsets or our society.

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u/Obelisko78 Aug 17 '22

Yes, but it isn't something either party wants to take even the partial blame for. Inasmuch as the current state of such potentially lifelong "relationships"has become essentially a quid pro quo business deal to negotiate, and to hold off "catching feelings" for any person that doesn't meet one's checklist of material/aesthetic demands. Realistically, anyone that really wants to get into a long-term relationship should only expect to get want they want out of it half the time, with the other half the time having to be a compromise that lets the other person get what they want (on all the things that aren't shared wants)

Am I difficult to live with? Sure, sometimes about some things; and so can anyone be, regardless of their gender. But I became happily single once I realized I could be content on my own, just by evading someone else's demands/expectations. For me, the cost in time/energy people are expecting for the value they're offering these days is just way out of proportion. It's as if people are expecting to be worshipped and bowed to (and I'm having the internal dialogue of 'who the fuck does this person thing they are? Are the skid marks in their own underwear so invisible to them?).

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u/tosser_0 Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

I commented there, but maybe guys are shadowbanned or something. Not a single reaction positive or negative to my comments, so here it is again.


1) the article doesn't come to that conclusion and 2) the article linked is highly opinionated without any real research. Here's a clearer picture

The rise of young male sexlessness isn’t about Chads and Stacies; it isn’t primarily about Tinder or Bumble; it’s not mostly about attitudinal shifts in what women want from relationships; and it’s not mainly about some new war between the sexes. It’s mostly about people spending more years in school and spending more years living at home. But that’s not actually a story about some change in sexual politics; instead, it’s a story about the modern knowledge economy, and to some extent exorbitant housing costs. As such, it’s no surprise that rising sexlessness is being observed in many countries. This, in turn, suggests that finding a solution to help young people pair up may not be as easy.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/male-sexlessness-is-rising-but-not-for-the-reasons-incels-claim

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u/0kids4now Aug 17 '22

I think dating apps have really changed a lot of this. Men are typically the ones who put themselves out there to start a relationship. So if you were a shy woman, you might not meet many men who ask you out. But now, you can just make a dating profile and have hundreds of guys lining up. You've got to filter them out somehow, so you only pick the top few.

That means the standard for men is really high. It's good in the sense that women can weed out misogynists and men who don't want to do housework. But there are also more arbitrary things. No gamers, no soccer players, no one who likes to fish, no one under 6 feet, etc. That means that something like 90% of women are going for the same 5% of men (I forget the actual numbers, but Tinder released them), which leaves a lot of both genders without a date.

It reminds me of employers in the age of online applications where they all expect people with a PhD and 10 years of experience and then complain that no one wants to work for them.

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u/PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS Aug 17 '22

I hate being villainized like this. I have had and will continue to have interactions with women friends of mine who will say to my face that "men are trash" and they really hesitate to carve out any exception.

I have put serious effort into going to therapy, working through my shit, getting a good education, taking care of my body, learning how to converse healthily, learning how to set boundaries and how to push the people you love to be the person they want to be, and when to leave them alone... I've learned so much. I've invested years into becoming a better person for my own good, yes, but because I want to be good for other people.

When I get painted with a broad brush like that, especially by people I think I love and trust, it just makes me bitter. It makes me not want to bother. If someone says that they think my demographic is trash, then I'm not going to waste my time and mental energy with them. As soon as someone expresses an idea like this, man or woman honestly, I'm gone.

So some men may be being avoided by women... But some might be avoiding those women. Cuts both ways.

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u/Fredredphooey Aug 17 '22

Do they know you're bi? Because I get hate from women for being bi.

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u/callipygiancultist Aug 17 '22

This pansexual woman friend of my mine started dating women and after a while told me how hard she was finding dating women and all I could say is “Yep”.

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u/LXXXVI Aug 17 '22

Quite a lot of the single hetero women I know have decided to stay single rather than fuss with men, because the majority of hetero men are not good partners and are not willing to put in the effort to become good partners.

Assuming there's 10% of men out there who would make for good partners and are actually attractive to women, this then logically means that they hold all the power when it comes to determining what direction women must develop in to be able to pair up with them, since it's N men that's desired by, say, 8N women.

Basically, we've gone back in time to the days where a small subset of men set standards women had to follow if they were to be considered good enough for a relationship.

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u/SvenTropics Aug 17 '22 Helpful Wholesome

The whole article and synopsis are kind of dumb actually. In the 30s the number of men and the number of women are the same. Homosexual populations are rather close as well and polyamory is still kind of an outlier. In other words, mathematically, "the rise of the single lonely man" is equally "the rise of the single lonely woman". This article just takes a correlation and pulls a bunch of conjectures out of it and then a female incel sub made a comment on it. You could equally make the conjecture that women have grown unrealistic expectations of men, and you'd be equally wrong.

The truth is actually a lot more nuanced than that, and it's been part of a larger discussion and debate. Today's young millennials are the least likely of any generation ever to get married, have sex, children, or be partnered. They're also the most likely generation to commit suicide. By far. In fact, among millennials, suicide is the number one cause of death. Granted, this is a young population. So conditions like cancer and heart disease are extremely rare at the stage.

"Why" is a bigger question? I could make conjecture, but I would be pulling it out of my butt like these people did. Some people attribute it to unrealistic dating standards because of Instagram. Other people think it's because millennials are broke and overworked so they don't feel worthy of dating. Some people think it's a breakdown in society because of social dating platforms. A positive spin is that people's lives have become more fulfilling in so many ways that dating is becoming less important. Humanity doesn't live in a bubble, and you can't do isolated experiments with controls and situations like this. So we just don't know.

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u/Rasalom Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22 Gold Helpful

I think it's because we're all poor, overworked, and stressed beyond all reason. Our environment doesn't lead to being happy alone, why would adding someone else fix it?

The thing that we use to talk to people - Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat - in spurts when we have time is weaponized against us having self worth. We're constantly harassed by our social media with endless meaningless sexuality and capitalism, aimed to make us feel inadequate by missing out, in the hopes we'll buy things to fill our inadequacies.

Even if you get past this and make something of yourself, make a business, make art... And you want to use an app to meet people in your scant free time? Dating apps are gamified against the majority and hide your profile if you don't pay them, leading to a horrible experience where you are aware of thousands of people around you, yet unable to interact with them.

When in the history of society could you be so utterly cut off from people, working from home, never going out, yet also be aware of thousands of people around you who seemingly don't want anything to do with you? The whole menagerie of social media and online dating literally brings the feeling of anti-social rejection out from the psyche and into reality. It literally quantifies it into acute, real, daily rejections.

We are being strangled by technology and society and wondering why a corpse of a person doesn't want to date. Why it sits at home and waits for something that isn't coming.

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u/Seigneur-Inune Aug 17 '22

When in the history of society could you be so utterly cut off from people, working from home, never going out, yet also be aware of thousands of people around you who seemingly don't want anything to do with you? The whole menagerie of social media and online dating literally brings the feeling of anti-social rejection out from the psyche and into reality. It literally quantifies it into acute, real, daily rejections.

This was especially well said.

Dating apps absolutely reinforce negative biases for both genders in different ways, I think. You're discussing the men's side of dating apps, which is also the side I'm intimately familiar with.

From talking with friends who are women, though, I think the apps absolutely do the same for them, but with a different subconscious feeling - which is lack of trust in society and/or men. Women (on average) don't deal with the fear of rejection by thousands on dating apps because those thousands are all knocking at their door begging for attention at once.

The fear for women which I hear in my friends' stories is that they have little information about those thousands other than a few pictures and a couple profile blurbs, an uncomfortable amount of those men are aggressive, and several of them are complete landmines. And since there's so little information (and none of the classic human non-verbal markers of respectful, sociable, engaging, patient, or any other green-flag trait), the well of all men becomes poisoned very quickly by bad experiences.

So we've constructed a system in modern dating where, for a significant chunk of men, they are aware of thousands of women around them who seemingly want nothing to do with them. And for a significant chunk of women, they are aware of thousands of men around them who are all potential landmines without a good way to truly vet them without stepping on the mine to see if it blows up.

And this is all from the perspective of quality people of either gender approaching a dating app. The apps let shitty people of either gender just run rampant with next to no accountability that a smaller, well-connected community would afford.

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u/Rasalom Aug 17 '22

I think we really do just have to get back to being around people and interacting with them in person. Let your real self, not the projected idealization, be in front of someone. Pheromones, shared experiences, etc. over long periods of time might work in your favor.

That doesn't mean we need to be forced to be in social situations, though. It doesn't have to be in the workplace, even that is dangerous because you could lose your job if you chat up the wrong person.

I'm lucky in that I have a talent that puts me in touch with people fairly often. If I want to, I can meet people just by waiting.

I think dating apps have to be abandoned. Someone on reddit pointed it out perfectly: every successful relationship on a dating app is also 2 (or more) less customers on a dating app. The motivation of the dating app is not to deliver success. It's to dangle the idea of it.

But if you cut those out... It's REALLY hard to find people.

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u/Pablo_Sanchez1 Aug 17 '22

As an almost 30 year old single guy that goes out socializing every weekend in a busy city full of thousands of people I can tell you it really doesn’t make it that much easier to meet people. Everyone’s just out with their established group of friends and there’s not a whole lot of mingling going on in my experience. Maybe I’m just not outgoing I don’t know.

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u/StandardForsaken Aug 17 '22

Have you been out socializing post-pandemic?

Violence is up, crime is up, people's crazy opinions etc are up. Their social media brains are out there IRL. I have been screamed at, physically assaulted, etc. That never happened to me pre-pandnemic. I've seen people cause scenes at restaurants and bars etc.

Honestly, I have tried quite a bit, but it's been so intensely negative (a lot more negative than it was say 5 years ago) that I just gave up and decided to get a dog. I meet a lot of nice people via my dog now, but none of them are single women. It's mostly older folks or young couples.

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u/Rasalom Aug 17 '22

No, not really. I don't really have a drive to socialize with how rough the world is getting.

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u/StandardForsaken Aug 17 '22

haha, yeah it's not great. I'm hoping it will get better! But who knows.

At least my dog is fun to go out to dinner with!

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u/AppleTruffleMuffin Aug 17 '22

As an wise old man from a cartoon said "Life happens wherever you are; whether you make it or not."

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u/Left_Brain_Train Aug 17 '22

goddammit you just out here verbalize everything I've believed about commodified alienation for years, but didn't know how to say without being gaslit as a crazy person

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u/Anna_Lilies Aug 17 '22

This is so similar to the "1 in 4 homeless are women" stat.

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u/Arrys Aug 17 '22

“Women are the primary victims of war”

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u/zer1223 Aug 17 '22

Some people think it's a breakdown in society because of social dating platforms

a very confusing and weird way to phrase it, but that's the camp I'm in. Dating platforms have completely ruined dating. For the people a dating site actually worked for: you're clearly a statistical outlier. It didn't work for the vast majority of people.

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u/immibis Aug 17 '22

Wasn't there some exposé about how match.com (which owns 99.99% of dating platforms, yes including that one) treats it as a revenue maximizing game using psychology? E.g. trying to make you feel like if only you paid them money you'd be able to get a match

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u/SirDiego Aug 17 '22

I sometimes use OK Cupid and it's pretty nefarious with that. I mean I get that it is their business model but it feels cruel in a way.

Using the free version of the app almost every screen bombards you with poups "BUY SUPERLIKES TO GET ATTENTION" and "A bunch of people like you, pay $25/month to see who!!!"

Not to mention multiple push notifications a day with ads for their paid service, which you can't selectively turn off without missing push notifications for actual messages from people.

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u/callipygiancultist Aug 17 '22

Man, that is sad. I don’t know it’s just nostalgia, but before it was bought by Match and turned into tinder-lite, okcupid was actually a great site. At least it didn’t feel anywhere near the current hellscape of swiping apps.

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u/SvenTropics Aug 17 '22

Exactly, if they came up with an effective approach to dating, their business would dry up.

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u/sercsd Aug 17 '22

The use gambling psychology to keep you hooked and topping up, same thing mobile games use.

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u/immibis Aug 17 '22

Yeah basically that.

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u/gregsting Aug 17 '22

Am an old fart over 40, probably wouldn't have been able to date most of my previous girlfriends through an app. Am in no way photogenic, a geeky skinny guy. And honestly I probably would have ignored a few of my exes too... Real life meeting is so much more important than a picture and a shopping list description

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u/zer1223 Aug 17 '22

Exactly. The apps just encourage the absolute worst approach to dating and I'll bet a ton of people will keep going with that approach for a decade or more before they realize the problem. And we all only have limited time on this planet so it's a tragedy for people to be wasting it on a bad approach

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u/loulan Aug 17 '22

In fact, among millennials, suicide is the number one cause of death. Granted, this is a young population.

Hasn't suicide always been the number one cause of death among young people? At least since modern medicine.

The reason being that it's highly unlikely you'll die of a disease when you're young.

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u/SvenTropics Aug 17 '22

https://www.yesmagazine.org/health-happiness/2019/10/12/kids-adults-data-suicide-rate

Suicide rates are absurdly higher than they have ever been among millennials and gen z.

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u/sad_and_stupid Aug 17 '22

well most single women I know don't date because they don't want to/got tired of it, while single men try but can't. So the number of singles is the same but the reason is different

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u/FuckFashMods Aug 17 '22

I just posted something similar:

Why is it “men have the mental issues”? Every women I know has just as much issues as men. The only difference is they can afford to be more picky, but it doesn’t actually help much getting into relationships since their issues are still there.

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u/Rasalom Aug 17 '22

the majority of hetero men are not good partners and are not willing to put in the effort to become good partners

Sources? This is quite the statement to make.

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u/AreYouWinningS0n Aug 17 '22

It’s an opinion being presented as fact. Not worth responding to be honest.

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u/Rasalom Aug 17 '22

Indeed, but I was curious what they read to get there... Might make for an interesting rabbit hole.

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u/EvilSporkOfDeath Aug 17 '22

Whatever happened to parent comments being unbiased?

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u/greasytater Aug 17 '22

The mods are scared of FDS calling them scrotes.

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u/gRod805 Aug 17 '22

My friend "worked on himself" for years and nothing changed in dating prospects and now he's become super bitter about it. He blames his height and his race (he's short / African American). He has a good paying job at a university doing IT work and works out everyday. When I've talked to him, he's completely given up on finding a wife.

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u/Wuellig Aug 17 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Starry Ally I'll Drink to That Timeless Beauty

Answer: Women like that it said men aren't being good partners and that's why those men are single.

The article suggests the men should learn and grow and be better if they want to find a partner, because women are doing just fine being single instead of being with unkind men.

Lots of times women get told it matters to be in a relationship so much that it's okay if men are just kind of mean forever. Women are conditioned to tolerate that, and have been for a long time.

That times are changing and fewer women are settling for less than they deserve is cause for celebration.

That it takes this article to point out that men do have a problem, even though so many will deny it, is exasperating.

Women are so used to not being listened to by men that an element of "now that this article says it, will you listen?"

Unfortunately, the men who most need to do the work will likely say, "nah, that must be about other guys, what are you so worked up for?"

And the numbers will rise.

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u/Pandy_45 Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

Lots of times women get told it matters to be in a relationship so much that it's okay if men are just kind of mean forever. Women are conditioned to tolerate that, and have been for a long time.

Literally the advice I got from my Boomer mother

Edit: PS I'm actually fighting with her right now about something else but this "advice" keeps ringing in my ears.

I left out the best part though her actual advice was to "either tolerate men or become a lesbian" because those are my only options according to her.

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u/ZapatillaLoca Aug 17 '22

my boomer mother told me; "love is grand, but keep the checkbook in your name."

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u/felixamente Aug 17 '22

My mom told me being in love isn’t really important in a relationship.

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u/ZapatillaLoca Aug 17 '22

our mothers and fathers had very sad lives

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u/9mackenzie Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

My grandmother told me that love isn’t the most important thing in a relationship. I was horrified as a teen hearing that………but honestly, she was right. Don’t get me wrong, love is important. But so is having the same morals, having similar goals, being treated well, having trust, respect, etc.

You can love someone who treats you badly. You can love someone who doesn’t want the things you do. You can love someone you don’t trust. Love isn’t enough to keep a relationship going, so it really isn’t the most important thing. I don’t see this as a sad thing, just a very wise thing. I find myself saying the exact same things to my kids.

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u/9mackenzie Aug 17 '22

My grandmother told me I needed a secret bank account that I should take some of the grocery money every week and put it away for an emergency. (I was a stay at home mom). My stepmother told me that, my other grandmother told me that, my older aunt told me that. I love talking to old ladies and I have heard the same from them. I have mentioned this to random men over the years and their response was always “omg- how fucked that all those women told you to steal from your husband”. Thankfully my husband didn’t say this or I wouldn’t have looked at him the same.

Generations of women with genuine fear for the younger women, giving advice on a way (and the necessity) to prepare for the need to escape a marriage……and that was the takeaway. It was disheartening how few men ever pay attention to the realities of what so many women have faced throughout the ages.

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u/shesasynth Aug 17 '22

My mom said the same thing, called it “mad money”.

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u/Azzizabiz Aug 17 '22

My boomer mother was a hardcore protesting feminist in the 60's and was 100% ready to put us in our place if we proved to be crappy partners to the women we dated. We've both been with our spouses for over 20 years and have healthy / supportive relationships.

The messaging and examples that our parents set, while not the only factor, can have a major impact on how we pursue and model our relationships.

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u/AggravatedBox Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

I left a relationship where he had a mini-meltdown because I started making more than him, and left on a boys trip the weekend we were moving in together so I had to pack and transport everything by myself. When I told my mom I was leaving, she insinuated it was a moral flaw on my part that I was running instead of trying to work on it. My relationship with her hasn’t been the same since.

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u/theanti_girl Aug 17 '22

I have a younger sister so it was the two of us girls growing up, raised with both parents but primarily by my mom.

She used to tell us you can’t leave after one physical fight; “the guy always gets one good hit and gets forgiven.” If it happens again, THEN you leave the relationship. Our mom said it, so to us, that was gospel.

The older I’ve gotten the more I realized how incredibly fucked up and ass backwards that advice is to give to anyone, never mind children, never mind your own daughters.

That generation, I swear. That kinda stuff really has to stop with us.

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u/rpfields1 Aug 17 '22

“the guy always gets one good hit and gets forgiven.”

Oh. My. God.

That kinda stuff really has to stop with us.

Truth. Let's not see another generation's lives tainted by this ridiculous BS.

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u/Cuddles_McRampage Aug 17 '22

Holy shit. That is fucked up and makes me so angry, because the only thing my mother (who is Silent generation, btw) ever said to me about her first husband was, "he hit me once and I made sure I wasn't around to be hit again."

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u/shedevilinasnuggie Aug 17 '22

See I told my two girls, if he ever hits you, hit back harder in self defense and then press charges. Absofuckinglutely no way thisnis how to raise kids. If a boy ever hit my girl to assert power/dominance I would hunt that fucker down.

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u/DiscreetLobster Aug 17 '22

As a guy that is absolutely bone chilling to hear. If I was dating someone and they told me that they'd still be with me if I hit them I'd immediately ask what kind of fucked up morality that is and seriously question if I even wanted to stay with someone like that. Because if that's how they see our relationship and the world, what else is she going to let me "get away with" while hand waving it away? I expect my partner to share my morals and call me on my shit (verbally obviously) to keep me in line, just as I would do with them. I don't want them to see red flags in me and just dismiss them. What kind of relationship would that create? Not a healthy one. Plus, looking at the future, is that what she would teach our kids, too? I would be heartbroken if my wife taught my daughter that it's OK to stay with an abuser.

Fortunately for me I found a great, strong woman and we've been together for over a decade now. In fact we just bought a house and my wife is pregnant with our first child, and I'm all set to be the stay at home dad while she continues to build her career. We're both super happy with our choices and am looking forward to our future!

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u/Meowzebub666 Aug 17 '22

Good lord, I'm so sorry. If my mom said something like this I'd wonder if she'd had a stroke.

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u/bonaynay Aug 17 '22

I left a relationship where he had a meltdown because I started making more than him,

Literally never understood this. It's more household money! Unless ya'll weren't sharing or something lol

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u/jupitergal23 Aug 17 '22

Right? I make three times the amount of money my husband does. Not because he's not a good provider or doesn't work hard - but he works in social services and the pay is shit. It's the price we pay for his compassion and wanting to help families.

So whenever I get a raise or move jobs, it's like "WHOO HOO!" from both of us.

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u/Meowzebub666 Aug 17 '22

I once asked my partner if it bothered him that I made more money than he did. He responded with "What? No! I wish you made more!" lol

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u/djmiles73 Aug 17 '22

I wish my wife made more than me. Then we could afford for me to take a sabbatical!

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u/Johnny_Appleweed Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

Same here!

Don’t get me wrong, my wife makes good money and I’m super proud of what she’s accomplished in her career so far.

But I’ve been in those weird guy-only conversations where they insinuate that it’s somehow a bad thing if you make less than your wife and comment about how I don’t have to worry about that with my job.

And I’m always like, are you kidding? My wife and I are a financial team, do you know how fucking rich we would be if she made more than me? But apparently some guys would rather have their pride than an early retirement.

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u/djmiles73 Aug 17 '22

I know, right. My career started years before hers, and I’ve moved into leadership which isn’t her thing, so it’s unlikely to happen. But yeah, we’re absolutely a team in this and so many of our financial worries would vanish if her salary were to significantly increase.

We’re about to move on and get new jobs. Family has been the priority before, now it’ll be the money!

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u/lunk Aug 17 '22

It's the price we pay for his compassion and wanting to help families.

The world needs more people like you two.

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u/IcebergSlimFast Aug 17 '22

The world also needs to pay people in social services positions much more based on the importance and value of the work they do.

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u/jupitergal23 Aug 17 '22

PREACH. I could never, ever do my husband's job. He deserves to be paid so much more.

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u/bonaynay Aug 17 '22

Almost all problems are solved by money and if my partner begins to make more money, I can't view this in any other way than positive.

I understand pride complicates it but I figured greed could temper it lol

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u/Krazyonee Aug 17 '22

A bit of a different situation here. My wife is military and I left my dream job to be with her (I don't hold this over her and try not to talk about it) and now she is the only income. I have had a few jobs that were ok but most of the time I have been out of work from military moving us around to having to make sure things get settled with the house.

As a man I can say that I felt very guilty and ashamed I was not making money for us or had a job and often the first thing people ask is "what work do you do?" So it makes it even harder. I still struggle but I have gotten more used to it. I never had a meltdown or anything over it but I could see that someone who was hard core raised that way would have some serious issues to work through within their own mind.

This all being said I don't understand why you would ever take it out on your partner or not feel instantly guilty for blowing up on them and talk it out. Me and my wife have had many talks about this and I have come to see that our culture enforces that men must work where women still have the view that they can work or take care of the house. (I don't mean women cause this just the view people take on it).

All in all it's been interesting to self explore just how many things have been ingrained in you from a young age if you fill the opposite role in a relationship you quickly see them.

Sorry for the long post

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u/CommitteeOfTheHole Aug 17 '22

Just as women have been conditioned to accept bad behavior from men, men have been conditioned to excuse bad behavior from themselves, and instead judge themselves by how much money they make (or whatever else is a measure of their ability to provide).

Since he works in social services, I’m sure he values helping others — but, if he’s feeling the same pressures from society that I’ve felt from time to time, he may not realize that even when it’s hard to quantify how you’re helping others, you may still be an integral part of the world around you. Men have been taught that money is the one and only way to measure one’s impact, but it’s not true. Challenging that subconscious idea in myself has made me a happier and better person (I think, and hope)

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u/discodecepticon Aug 17 '22 Take My Energy

I was in the Army when my wife and I got married. Every time I was promoted she would be more affectionate toward me (Like coming over to me and hugging me from behind, or just saying "I love you" out of the blue) and happier in general. She would be less up for an argument, and would do little things out of the blue for me (4 days after my first promotion she just brought me a sandwich and a glass of lemonade she made me... didn't even ask if I wanted lunch, just "I know you're hungry, I know what you like on a sandwich, so I made you one")

Then I was hurt, and discharged from the Army. It took over a year to get my disability pay. In that time my wife had to work, and things got bad between us. Uninstigated displays of affection stopped. I had to be the one to say "I love you" most of the time to even be told she still felt the same for me. She complained that I didn't do enough around the house. I was in constant agony from my physical injuries and had not yet learned how to live with them... but how would she have known that? I didn't talk about it. I figured that there was nothing she could do to help me, so why make her feel bad for me?

And then I got my disability pay, and everything was great again (Aside from the physical pain) she took less hours at work. We had sex for the first time in 8months.

My whole life I had had been taught that I was only valuable for what I could do for everyone. My mother only loved me when I was little, or when we were around people she could brag to about how smart I was and how well I was doing with school (Or later, when I could give her money). My grandparents and Aunts and Uncles were proud of me when I was the soldier... but I was just another deadbeat after I got hurt (Living off the state even).

Three years ago my wife got a new job and a sizable pay increase... I panicked. It took me a few weeks to figure out why... and to work through my bullshit.

In hindsight I know what was really going on with my wife. I feel like an idiot for not figuring it out sooner. It's the same way when we get our tax returns back (She would be happier and quicker to show affection) It was never ME earning the money. It's stress. When she is working a lot she was stressed all the time. She feels the same toward me, it's just harder to show it with little things when you're always in your own head panicking about big things. Add on top of that my own issues due to my shitty family (And narcissistic mother), its hard to shake the things we were taught as kids.

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u/AggravatedBox Aug 17 '22

I was really worried where this was going and applaud y’all for hitting that level of self awareness in your relationship to know how stress impacts your interactions.

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u/discodecepticon Aug 17 '22

Oh. Sorry. I guess this could have taken a toxic turn. I think my goal was to give an example of how someone could think that way. It doesn't change the fact that most of the issue is their own BS.

It's insecurity. Some guy's think that all they are is what they can do for others. "Why would she stay with me if she doesn't NEED me. And any guy she works with makes as much, and is thus a better catch than me". It's their insecurities backed up by the BS from their environment growing up. I'd liken it to the way society makes women feel like their value it tied to their looks (But not usually as explicit).

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u/Ruralraan Aug 17 '22

Why would she stay with me if she doesn't NEED me.

I came across this so often, I had ex boyfriends say this verbatim to me. But it wasn't money (alone), it was me being a pretty good handywoman around the house and fit around everything technological/electronical. They couldn't comprehend that I didn't need them, but want them. I mean, isn't that the bigger compliment? But they took it as an offence.

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u/bonaynay Aug 17 '22

This was a really heartfelt and thoughtful comment that should be read by many others. I hope people see it even though it's so deep in the comments at this point

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u/AggravatedBox Aug 17 '22 Helpful

We were! We had agreed to split bills proportionally - my promotion meant he would’ve been paying less of the bills than I was, plus we’d agreed I’d do most of the cooking since I enjoyed it. Instead, I broke up with him the weekend before we were supposed to officially move in.

I’m now with someone that loves to (jokingly) call me his sugar mama. He’s an engineer and proud to say his girlfriend is more successful than he is.

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u/chrissesky13 Aug 17 '22

Hey its really great that you had the strength and self value to walk away from that relationship. Our parents are from different generations where they had less opportunities and chances at being happy. At least, that's what I tell myself.

I'm the youngest child, only daughter of two hispanic/Latin immigrants. I have a very strained low contact relationship with my mother. We have gotten to this point after years of putting up with her cruel views of the world. Any time I was fighting with a boyfriend, or split up from a boyfriend I always received the same question from her. "What did you do?" To my mother it's never occurred to her that someone else could be at fault. It's always something I must have done and had control over.

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u/AggravatedBox Aug 17 '22

Youngest child of Hispanic immigrants here too lol, must be the brand. I’m really thankful for my older siblings because they paved the way for me. I learned a lot about healthy boundaries with family and relationships from watching them experience it first.

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u/bonaynay Aug 17 '22

What a fool. I'm glad you upgraded. I am soon to benefit from my partner making more than me after many years of them struggling. Very proud

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u/coltflory5 Aug 17 '22

Good god. He’s the one who ran away for the weekend instead of working on it… and by “working on it” I mean celebrating your personal success and new home together. Congrats on dodging a bullet.

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u/AggravatedBox Aug 17 '22

Yeah. He acted shocked when I addressed it. Said he assumed I wouldn’t need his help since I’d been planning and making spreadsheets, plus putting stuff in boxes a week in advance… couldn’t believe I had to explain that no amount of spreadsheets would enable my petite self to lift and carry a dining room table or my armoire completely solo.

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u/DiscreetLobster Aug 17 '22

I mean he sounds like a douche. There are a lot of them out there. Good on you for seeing it and realizing you deserve better :)

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u/Impriel Aug 17 '22

Good for you, I'm not sure you can really love someone if you want to limit their growth to preserve your own ego. (I know the reason is probably more than just that, but I think it's an important small piece of truth that says you did the right thing)

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u/BurstOrange Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

It just occurred to me I stopped talking to my mom about romantic relationships cause she also gave me unsolicited and bad dating advice.

In her case it was “but he likes you! You should date him”. Yeah, I knew he liked me. It was pretty obvious when he’d insist on following me home from school despite me asking him not to, grab my backpack off my back despite me asking him not to so he could “carry it for me like a gentleman”, sit outside on the front porch for HOURS despite me asking him to leave, show up randomly on the weekends to sit on the porch despite me asking him not to, ask me out every week despite me turning him down every week and spend all of his time talking to me moping that I wouldn’t date him. So I took my mom’s advice and agreed to go see a movie with him. He picked a movie I had already seen and that I told him I had already seen and refused to change the movie because it was a horror movie and he kept trying to hold my hand the whole time, yelled at me for telling him I’d be taking a bus to the theater to meet up with him (he wanted his parents to drive us) and kept trying to kiss me despite how clearly I kept saying no. When I told my mom all this she told me he was sweet, he liked me, it was cute.

Never brought up boys to my mom again after that. He also later sexually harassed my best friend in front of me so that was cool.

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u/Shippinglordishere Aug 17 '22

I know so many women whose husbands have either cheated or live far away for their career and people kept telling me it was the woman’s fault. “She’s too ambitious,” “she wasn’t sweet enough,” “men don’t like it when their wives make more than them.” “A wife shouldn’t be more educated than her husband.” Meanwhile, the elder son has to act as a father figure for his kid brother because the dad hasn’t come home in 15 years.

I knew a couple where the wife was really hard working and ambitious and the husband was insecure and accused her of cheating on him, slapped her, and then begged her to come back when she left. I heard people acknowledge he was awful, but there was still the “she wasn’t fulfilling her duties as a wife” sort of blaming

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u/mediocreasian Aug 17 '22

My aunt (father’s sister) told my mother that she should put up with my father’s cheating :))))

My mother told me that I have to be more submissive to find a partner. But imo being submissive only attracts abusive partners so why would I want that

Decided I’m quite happy being stubborn and independent until I found someone the exact opposite of my father. Now I’m with a sane human being with a healthy moral compass and I love him very much.

Don’t settle ladies xx

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u/Augustanite Aug 17 '22

My boomer MIL said of a woman on reality TV who shared the story of a rape she experienced, "She shouldn't tell everyone, some men don't like that." I thought my head was going to explode.

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u/sirophiuchus Aug 17 '22

That's so tragic as well though. I wonder how many stories she knew of women who'd been assaulted and got no social support.

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u/PauseAndReflect Aug 17 '22

My husband’s dad cheated on his mom, and somehow, some way, he convinced her that it was her fault he cheated.

100% he just wanted to cheat, she did nothing wrong. So enraging to think about.

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u/thereisaplace_ Aug 17 '22

Gas lighting 101

:-(

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u/I_LoveToCook Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

My boomer father told me it was ok my long term boyfriend was an alcoholic because I was getting older and ‘your not perfect yourself’. I was 22. I did not take his advise and dumped him instead, which worked out for him because it pushed him to go to rehab and now we both have wonderful marriages to other people. Maybe men are so pissy because they are losing their enablers and have to confront being an adult and fixing their shit.

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u/jason28 Aug 17 '22

They’re so pissy because the world is changing and they refuse to change with it. Equal rights leveled the playing field, and the white man lost his place in the world. Instead of adapting and overcoming these new challenges, some men entrenched and blame the world for their failures.

I say this as a white male raised lower to middle class in the Midwest.

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u/allboolshite Aug 17 '22

As another white male, I want to say you're wrong, but... gestures at Trump supporters. I don't think it's just gender parity, but the idea that equality means someone has to lose something. The reverse is actually true: a rising tide lifts all boats. The bootstrappers need to learn how to compete when the deck isn't stacked in their favor.

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u/Dishy22 Aug 17 '22

Your mother's frame of reference comes from a time when women literally could not have their own finances. No bank account. No credit card. The husband literally had to sign off on credit card applications. Marriage meant financial and social stability for the majority of working class women into the 60s and 70s in the United States.

While her attitude is antiquated, it's hard to ignore its rooted purely in survival.

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u/GloomOnTheGrey Aug 17 '22

A boomer neighbor told me that I had to tolerate the psychological and physical abuse I was suffering at the hands of my then partner because I needed to ensure my "security and future" when I told her I was looking into leaving(escaping). Nevermind that my health was declining and my hair was falling out from the stress, and I genuinely looked like shit. I would have died sooner rather than later. I found out she stayed friends with him after I got away, so I blocked her.

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u/cookiecutterdoll Aug 17 '22

Yep, I think a lot of under-50 women saw what their mothers and grandmothers put up with and decided that being someone's emotional punching bag (or literal, in some cases) in exchange for financial stability/social acceptance wasn't worth it.

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u/robilar Aug 17 '22 Silver All-Seeing Upvote

Aside:

Psychology Today is not an academic source - they often start from academic studies, and then write opinion articles based on (sometime very thin) slices of the results of those studies. In my personal experience (as a one time subscriber) the articles lean towards sensationalism in order to feed outrage and sell more copies, so it is not uncommon for there to be a piece that reinforces gender tropes or speaks to a trendy opinion in the popular zeitgeist. When I was less informed about the underlying research, and more prone to reading material that bolstered my pre-existing notions, I found myself often agreeing with (and enjoying the consumption of) the stereotypes they tended to reinforce. I am now less thrilled with their disinterest in academic rigor and willingness to exaggerate small differences in otherwise nearly entirely overlapping bell curves.

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u/_loud_lady_ Aug 17 '22

This comment should be way higher up.

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u/pangineer Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

Also important to note that for a long time a woman's role was to be a loving house wife who did the emotional labor in the relationship as well as the house work in exchange for financial stability from her husband. A lot of men could get away with being emotionally unavailable or even mean because women needed them to survive, financially speaking. Now that the majority of women are contributing financially, they are seeking partners that will contribute equally to working on the relationship (and chores).

Not to mention, many women who are working 40 hours per week at a day job are still expected to do a majority of the house work, child rearing, emotional labor, etc.

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u/StevesMcQueenIsHere Aug 17 '22

That would be my mom. She's still working and my step-dad is retired, but she's still expected to do all the cooking and cleaning. Shit pisses me off.

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u/Fanfics Aug 17 '22

Unfortunately, the men who most need to do the work will likely say, "nah, that must be about other guys, what are you so worked up for?"

That's the key problem here. The men that are willing to listen to this kind of feedback aren't the ones that actually need to, generally.

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u/RealLameUserName Aug 17 '22

I saw a girl make a take where she was talking about the question of "when is it appropriate to approach a woman in public?" as it has come up significantly. A lot of women have had situations where assholes have come up to them in and be an asshole so they'll talk about how horrible men are and why they shouldn't approach them in public. The "good" men who are trying to improve themselves and not be a labeled as a creep or asshole will often hear women hate being approached and then they won't approach women in public. The assholes however don't care so they'll just keep being assholes which continues to perpetuate the idea to women that all men are pigs since theyre only experiencing assholes. It's this weird cycle that I'm not sure how it can be broken.

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u/Enticing_Venom Aug 17 '22

I've been approached by random guys before and every time I thought they were perfectly polite and nice and we had a kind exchange. Actually two times it was to stop and tell me I have beautiful eyes. I thought that was very lovely to hear!

If I ever mention that on a feminist sub though, Lord help me. Any insinuation that cold approaches can be positive or beneficial in some manner is basically treason as far as they're concerned.

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u/EUmoriotorio Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 17 '22

Yeah, i think i could be a good partner but i would never approach a woman these days. I married one that approached me, but i would never try dealing with and feeling that out. There aren't enough hours in the day for that.

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u/Fanfics Aug 17 '22

My strategy these days is... *checks notes* sit around looking pretty and hope I attract a wife.

So I guess step one is gonna have to be 'become pretty'

yeah I'm fucked, in an entirely figurative sense

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u/lilleulv Aug 17 '22

That was me at this stage too, then all of a sudden a coworker wanted to set me up with another coworker. She did the preliminary checks (entirely on her own accord) so I knew an approach would be welcomed.

Definitely at an early stage yet, but I still can’t quite believe being this passive has paid off in any way.

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u/thejaytheory Aug 17 '22

I feel this.

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u/turquoise_amethyst Aug 17 '22 Silver

I wouldn’t really say it’s the “in public” part, it’s more like how you wouldn’t approach another random dude if he’s doing something.

Would you strike up a casual conversation with another guy at a park if he had headphones in and was reading? Or on the subway if he’s looking at his phone? No? Well, then don’t do that to random women.

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u/tosser_0 Aug 17 '22

I made a random joke to this lady while out shopping. Just had a random funny thought to share. I needed to grab a salad or something, and she was there.

Wasn't hitting on her, wasn't being creepy in any way. Her response - "why are you talking to me?"

A guy would just laugh or not say anything. Like...why bother, just to feel like an asshole.

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u/sikagoon7 Aug 17 '22

Maybe it's just me but I don't really talk to women I don't know any more. Common greetings and courtesy is about it.

I feel more comfortable chopping it up with stranger dudes no issue. Random quips and jokes about basketball memes, cars, motorcycles, video games, politics, whatever. While waiting for a friend at the gas station it's easy to strike up conversation with a guy that just walked in to get a Gatorade. Not the same with women.

I'm glad I'm married.

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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '22

That’s how I met one of my best friends. We were waiting for our Geek Squad appointments, when i randomly asked the dude next to me about his device. 30 minutes of cracking jokes later, we traded numbers and set up plans to meet up to watch a soccer game.

Real cool too since he’s a fan of Mexican leagues, and I was mostly familiar with the European leagues. Never would I have befriended him had it been a woman. Often times I get the feeling that they think I’m hitting on them, but with guys it’s just like “sup bro” and we are homies for life.

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u/liontamarin Aug 17 '22

Yes. I've struck up lots of conversations with random guys around NYC. Sometimes they strike up a conversation with me. Or just pay me a compliment. Sometimes I do the same. Had a guy just recently tell me he liked my hair as we passed on the street.

Do I tend to do that with women?

No. Or at least not as often by a noticeable degree.

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u/Kotja Aug 17 '22

"Be Gomez Addams!" said Madame Thénardier.

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u/SomberWail Aug 17 '22

How convenient that the blame falls entirely on men

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u/higgleops Aug 17 '22

Definitely all on men. Women would never have unrealistic standards or expectations of what they deserve. Literally inconceivable (apparently for all the top commentors on this post).

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u/luistp Aug 17 '22

If that article says this, it's an oversimplification of the reality. But it relates with the trend "men bad, women good" and thus the success, I suppose.

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u/allboolshite Aug 17 '22

This is pretty close, but keep in mind Psychology Today is not peer reviewed and is usually not allowed to be used as a source in college psych classes. And, this article is an advertisement pretending to be an article. That's not to say that it doesn't strike a nerve.

That times are changing and fewer women are settling for less than they deserve is cause for celebration.

This is on point. And the popularity of this "article" is a symptom of that change. More women kept their jobs during the Great Recession. And more women are in college than men now. There are still issues with pay disparities, but women who make it to the C Suite usually make more than their male counterparts.

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u/[deleted] Aug 17 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/inescapablenightmare Aug 17 '22 Silver Gold All-Seeing Upvote

Answer: Many, many many many women, I’d wager to say nearly all, have at some point in their lives, felt pressured to stay in bad relationships.

My parents never even talked about relationships or anything. But just by existing and being born female I internalized messages I saw out in the world. I felt like sex was for men. I felt like men taking advantage of, irritating women, being emotionally unavailable, only valuing you for sex, was normal. Women get told men will use you from a young age — this does nothing to ward women away from men. Instead it lowers their standards, so when they end up with a selfish man they feel defeated, thinking — “well this is how I was told all men are, so trying to find a better man is useless.”

It is still difficult for MANY women to feel like they’re allowed to have standards. Even on popular subs like relationship_advice… there are a fair bit of men that come on there and complain when women get advised to break up — because they don’t find the reasons to be justifiable enough.

The idea that women can just say no to men because they kind of feel neutral about him or without “giving him a chance” is offensive to some people.

With all that in mind, it’s a breath of fresh air. We can see trends are changing and women having their own preferences and sticking to them is rising. Women not accepting that they have to do all the chores is rising. Women accepting that they don’t have to date men who have huge disparities in emotional intelligence is rising. Women caring about themselves too instead of sacrificing their whole lives to make a man happy is rising.

And we still have a long, long way to go. Despite this there are still massive amounts of women out there that feel guilt and shame over saying no to men. Women that think they have to have sex even when it hurts. Women that do all the labor for years and only reach a breaking point as they get older. It’s very sad. But it’s getting better.

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u/For_NSFW_Only Aug 17 '22

This is such an interesting point. As a man it is hard to relate to it. It almost sounds like most all women are conditioned into being submissive servants from a young age. This might explain the dating patterns of a lot of women I’ve seen. From a normal guy’s perspective, looking in from the outside, it just seems like the girls are interested in jerks, why else would they be with them, but maybe they are trapped in their own heads, thinking they deserve to be treated badly.

Something is very rotten in the dating world.

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u/Aggressive-Book-5372 Aug 17 '22 edited Aug 18 '22

> It almost sounds like most all women are conditioned into being submissive servants from a young age.

"Submissive servants" is kind of a hyperbole, but it doesn't feel that far off. Look at r/relationships or r/amitheasshole and you'll find half a dozen posts on the front page alone where a woman takes some sort of deferential role in the relationship (often feeling unappreciated for cleaning/cooking for her partner at the expense of her own time and money, and at worse being trapped in a relationship and emotionally abused) and is double checking if being unhappy in the situation is normal.

As for your last sentence, it's not so much that these ladies "think they deserve to be treated badly" so much that, in their limited experience, that's just how men treat their partners. So if he's only kind of an asshole instead of a total asshole, that's better than most. This is perpetuated even in most family-friendly sitcoms where husbands mock their wives "with love". Plus love and infatuation legitimately does blind people to the way that they're treated poorly.